S6E84 | Caleb Fernández - Exposed: "Calvary Chapel is a Cult" - Survivor Breaks His Silence

Today I’m honored to introduce you all to: Cult and cult abuse survivor, overcomer and now whistleblower for the very first time today, Vice President of the non-profit Tuscon Pops Orchestra, freelance social media photographer, future cosmetology school graduate, Penn State University alum, former Digital Content Creator for KGUN 9, artist, creative, and an incredible hero stepping up today to break the silence on cult abuse and to educate on how victims can take steps to get out: Caleb Fernandez
 
A little bit about Caleb and what we will be discussing today:

Born and raised in a Southern California cult, Caleb entered the world already entangled in a web of multigenerational cult abuse. Multiple church leaders were personally involved in his torment. He endured ritual abuse during his childhood, encounters with human trafficking, and the insidious machinery of mind control. He speaks openly of the influence of unclean spirits at work within the infamous Calvary Chapel and carries the conviction that this organization operates as a cult - one whose chains must be named so others can break free.

Yet even as a child, something inside him refused to be extinguished. Caleb has always possessed an innate affinity for creative collaborations. Throughout his early education, he poured his soul into musical theatre, discovering in performance, music, and collective artistry a language that spoke louder than fear. That same creative current carried him forward. He earned a bachelor’s degree from Penn State University in Advertising/Public Relations, then moved straight to New York City. There he mastered the disciplines of production assistance, photography, and art direction—skills that would later become instruments of both personal expression and advocacy.

Today, at 33, Caleb stands as living proof that survival is not merely endurance but transformation. His journey toward freedom began in his early twenties and reached its triumphant culmination when he officially escaped the cult in 2025. “It’s been tough,” he says with quiet strength, “but I’m taking it day by day.” Every step forward has been an act of radical courage. His testimony is not only deeply moving—it serves as irrefutable evidence and a clear, urgent message: Calvary Chapel is a cult, and there are practical, life-saving steps anyone still trapped inside can take to get out.

Now a dedicated survivor advocate, Caleb channels his hard-won wisdom into lifting others. He now serves as Vice President of the Tucson Pops Orchestra, a nonprofit where music becomes medicine and community becomes sanctuary. He continues to practice freelance photography, manages social media accounts with strategic brilliance, and draws on his expertise in shooting still and moving images, retouching, scripting, editing, event planning, and brand representation. With cosmetology school on the horizon, his creative vision keeps expanding - proof that the same hands once bound can now create beauty, connection, and new beginnings

Caleb is more than a survivor. He is a living symphony of resilience—a man who took the shattered notes of his past and composed a future filled with purpose, artistry, and fierce advocacy. His story reminds every person who has ever felt trapped, silenced, or broken that the light inside you is stronger than any cult, any abuse, any chain. From the depths of unimaginable darkness, Caleb has risen - not just to survive, but to sing, to create, to lead, and to show others the way out. His voice carries the unmistakable sound of freedom. And that sound is changing lives.

🔗RECOMMENDED RESOURCES:
-https://bohemian.com/papers/sonoma/04.02.98/calvary-9813.html
-https://muckrack.com/caleb-fernandez-4
-https://kyma.com/author/caleb-fernandez/
-https://www.kgun9.com/caleb-fernandez
-https://youtu.be/NgiLW-sI3u0?is=mcQ4Ouh9l73sQs2e
-https://youtu.be/0F7YOYUxWNg?is=0xUVeb8g3NGR3lym
-https://youtu.be/Xd8uIqrC6aU?is=Ct0-XfKL-DzQOIpP

🔗CONNECT WITH CALEB:
-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/calebface
-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCUYD1gVN6bZllqxrF3u3q0g
-TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@calebjohnfernandez

🔗CONNECT WITH EMMA:
-YouTube: @imaginationpodcastofficial  - https://www.youtube.com/@imaginationpodcastofficial
-Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/TheImaginationPodcast
-EMAIL: imagineabetterworld2020@gmail.com OR standbysurvivors@protonmail.com
-Substack: https://emmakatherine.substack.com/
-BUY ME A COFFEE: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/theimagination
-VENMO: @emmapreneur
-CASHAPP: $EmmaKatherine1204
-All links: https://direct.me/theimaginationpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

What's up, you guys? Welcome to The Imagination. I'm your host, Emma, and today I am so honored to introduce you all to cult and cult abuse survivor, overcomer, and now whistleblower for the very first time today, vice president of the nonprofit Tucson Pops Orchestra, freelance social media photographer, future cosmetology school graduate, Penn State University alum, former digital content creator for KGUN9, artist creative, and an incredible hero stepping up today to break the silence on cult abuse and to educate on how victims can take steps to get out. Caleb Fernandez. A little bit about Caleb and what you guys can expect to hear about on today's episode. Born and raised in a Southern California cult, Caleb entered the world already entangled in a web of multi-generational cult abuse. Multiple church leaders were personally involved in his torment. He endured ritual abuse during childhood, encounters with human trafficking, and the insidious machinery of mind control. He speaks openly of the influence of unclean spirits at work within the infamous Calvary Chapel and carries the conviction that this organization operates as a cult, one whose chains must be named so others can break free. Yet, even as a child, something inside him refused to be extinguished. Caleb has always possessed an innate affinity for creative collaborations. Throughout his early education, he poured his soul into musical theater, discovering in performance, music, and collective artistry a language that spoke louder than fear. That same creative current carried him forward. He earned a bachelor's degree from Penn State University in advertising and public relations, then moved straight to New York City. There he mastered the disciplines of production assistance, photography, and art direction, skills that would later become instruments of both personal expression and advocacy. Today at 33, Caleb stands as living proof that survival is not merely endurance, but transformation. His journey toward freedom began in his early 20s and reached its triumphant culmination when he finally escaped the cult in 2025. It's been tough, he says, with quiet strength, but I'm taking it day by day. Every step forward has been an act of radical courage. His testimony is not only deeply moving, it serves as irrefutable evidence and a clear, urgent message. Calvary Chapel is a cult, and there are practical, life-saving steps anyone still trapped inside can take to get out. Now, a dedicated survivor advocate, Caleb channels his hard-won wisdom into lifting up others. He now serves as vice president of the Tucson Pops Orchestra, a nonprofit where music becomes medicine and community becomes sanctuary. He continues to practice freelance photography, manages social media accounts with strategic brilliance, and draws on his expertise in shooting still and moving images, retouching, scripting, editing, event planning, and brand representation. With cosmetology school on the horizon, his creative vision keeps expanding, proof that the same hands, once bound, can now create beauty, connection, and new beginnings. Caleb is so much more than a survivor. He is a living symphony of resilience, a man who took the shattered notes of his past and composed a future filled with purpose, artistry, and fierce advocacy. His story reminds every person who has ever felt trapped, silenced, or broken that the light inside you is stronger than any cult, any abuse, and any pain. From the depths of unimaginable darkness, Caleb has risen not just to survive, but to sing, to create, to lead, and to show others the way out. His voice carries the unmistakable sound of freedom. And that sound is changing lives. So you guys, without further ado, please help me in welcoming today's guest of honor, Survivor and Warrior, Walking Miracle, Voice for the Voiceless, Cult of Use Educator and Survivor Advocate, Passionate Purveyor of Truth, Content Visionary and Creator, my new friend and chainbreaker, the one, the only, Caleb Fernandez. Caleb, it is an honor to have you on today. Thank you so much for being here with us.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Thank you, Emma, for that amazing info. I mean you are you are you need to get an award from YouTube for your info.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

It's my honor. You're so deserving of it. Your story is just mind-blowing. And we really are lucky that you're here today to be able to educate us. And I'm actually excited to talk about this topic today, not because it's a happy topic, but because, for one, we get to celebrate that you're here and educating us on it when you could still be caught up in the cult. It's such an amazing, triumphant celebration that we get to have today that you escaped. And so not even that long ago, just 2025, that you finally got out, but also because this type of abuse in these megachurches runs so rampant, and yet so many victims are either still entrapped or they're silenced and they're gaslit or they are too scared to come forward. And Calvary Chapel has been brought up a couple of times on my podcast, never in depth the way that we're going to do today. But I know that there has to be so many more survivors out there. So you get the opportunity today to be a voice for them. And my hope and prayer is that more survivors come forward and connect with you and find their strength in your testimony today and feel empowered and less victimized, and that we're giving them the torch to take their power back from the people that victimized them. So such an honor to have you on today. And I thought I would ask this is your first time sharing your testimony. And I'm really honored that you chose this platform versus any other podcast that probably would have loved to talk to you, but wanted to ask you about coming forward and that decision and and why you're deciding to come forward and speak about this today.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Well, there's been, you kind of said it were as a child, like that curiosity, uh, even the creativity, but specifically the creep, like the curiosity. It's it's I've always a child, I remember even being in Calvary Chapel and almost a band like maybe five, not even six. And I remember in the sanctuary asking, like, wait, I thought Jesus already came back. And they're like, no, no, no, that's the first time he's gonna come back again. And um as a child, I would ask things that they didn't want me to ask. So something as simple as that, and then saying, like, okay, he's coming back, and then thinking, okay, but wait, I thought he already came back. So that was, you know, and and and I'm and I don't want to make this conversation about um whether Jesus is real or not, because that's not that's not what this is. Um when I went to college though, I can't say I was like, okay, I know this Jesus guy, like, you know, I've learned about him my whole life, but I want to study what I've been just looking up on Wikipedia, you know, as a high schooler. And so I enrolled in like Jewish study courses, I enrolled in study of ancient Egypt. I I surrounded with myself with as many of those electives as I could. And I I needed to because I I I couldn't just keep going to my parents and asking them, oh, what about this? And especially because, like, you right before you began, um, we mentioned the Masons, like my dad and my brother are freemasons. And I like I remember even looking that up in high school. They're like, oh, we can't tell you what we what we do. And I remember looking on the computer and being like, you realize your rituals are online. Like, and I remember I like printed out on paper and showed them, and I was like, You realize like all your secrets are right here online. Like, it can't be that secretive. And so like there's there's there's there are so many little twists and turns in my story, and it doesn't even like the the the most controversial stuff isn't even me leaving. I feel like that is very controversial, but the the stuff that led up to it is why I finally left. And and I knew that like when I claimed that Calvary Chapel has unclean spirits there, it's like it's obviously a church, and it's uh mega church in some areas. Like in LA, the the Costa Mesa one I think is like a whole of like 15,000 people or something like that. Like they're massive. And my Calvary Chapel experience is I'm born and raised in it, but I live inland California, so east of San Diego, it's like San Diego County and then my county, and in Mexico, right below us. So we're like as south as you can get. And growing up, I always heard of like Jeff Smith pretty much being like the Pope of all Calvary Chapel. Like it was even made clear to me that all Calvary Chapels run the way he wants them run. And if anything objects, you know, objects to that, we can get out. And um I'm gonna be, you know, kind of skipping a little round, but um, I even last year when I finally decided to leave and I can get into that, um, I had a legal issue. And um my lawyer, I figured I was like, I don't want to get a lawyer from around here. It's it's so small in this area that like because my dad was a cough, he knows all the police, like you know, everybody kind of knows everybody. It's it's small town enough that it has that. And I didn't want to get a lawyer that would potentially be connected to all this. And I got a lawyer from um Orange County and or like Burbanks, that area. And when he got here, and after everything was done, he told me, he was like, Yeah, I actually know what Calvary Chapel is. Like one of my buddies was going to their Bible college in Costa Mesa for a little bit, and he raised his hand to ask the question, and Chuck Smith was there, like teaching the class, and like he like littled in, and like basically everybody understood like you don't ask questions, not even at the Bible college, like you listen to what they say, and then that's it. And so I felt completely validated, like, especially this last year. I'm like, okay, I'm I'm moving in the right direction, you know, things are a little tough, but just something like that, like that's my lawyer, he could have just like said whatever kid, but he was like, I actually know what that is. Like, yeah, that's a cult. But but but during the court proceedings, I I was told to call it um a dogmatic or or a dogmatic. He was like, he was like, don't call it a cult, call it um a dogmatic theology. I think that's that, I think that's the the verbiage he wanted me to because um like I can't get into what happened in court, but it basically um there was triangulation from the church, people involved, my my family, and right now I'm in a good place, I'm safe, I'm okay. But um it's it it was hard having to go through what my home was because a lot of people consider like Calvert Trouble their home, at least people who are part of it. Like I grew up thinking if I couldn't find my parents for like two months, the rat strikes on and they went on. And that's something that I've heard from actually a lot of people who were involved with Calder. That like, like I know that there's the pre-tribulation, post-tribulation facts with nutrition communities and probably chuckle is very much like the tribulation's coming, like we're all gonna be safe. And but what I found astounding was looking up other people's stories, is that they have that thing, like it's it's legit PTFP. Like, if I if I literally was in my house or like at Walmart, and then I lost sight of my parents for like a couple minutes, I remember literally thinking I've been left behind without 15 and like they were always for me to look back on it, I laughed, but I realized with like as a child, I was really traumatized. I was, I, I was like asking forgiveness every time someone said got in vain, and then I was asking forgiveness for thinking it in my head, and then I was asking forgiveness. You know, there was just like a lot that I don't think a child needs to be um pressured with nor confused by. And it was all with like I really do want to talk a lot about my parents in this because they before the Calvary Chapel Church was built, they hosted Bible studies at RL. And that kind of goes deep into how Calvary Chapel was formed, like in the 50s or whatever, and they met on the beach and people to do like this little hippie movement. And I really do think that the spirit that's got the people's heads because like God is everywhere, you know, God will be part of us, even if we don't want God, right? Or God's gonna I mean God will let us do what we want, but God's always gonna play a role in our life, and I knew that, but what I also was picking up, and it wasn't just me, it was other people who would work at the church and then like quit and say like they didn't see God there, or it was also like as a child, yes, I did musical theater, but I remember being at that church, like the church I'll reach up often, so they they they had us do a lot of weird rituals, and that's what that's what I want to focus on for the specific unclean example. Like, I remember our pastor saying, I had a dream that when we opened a new church, it was gonna be a row of you as clowns. And so me as a kid thinking, like, oh, that's okay, that's fine. Like, I I want to dress up and have fun, okay, I'll do that. But as I got older, I started piecing things like that together with other ritual abuse, as well as like in our initial email, I mentioned that my pastor's son dated Katie Perry. And so, and and that was his like claim to fame within the Kabi Chapel community, because I mean, we don't need to talk about Katie Perry, she's from a different church, and who knows what her parents are involved in. Uh, it's all you know, it's all alleged. But at least for myself, like I would hear these little things all throughout. And I know in a lot of people's cult testimonies, they'll talk about like what they were being like um formed into, you know, like what their parents wanted them to become. And I'm pretty sure that what my parents were kind of training with the rest of the Calvary Chapel community, I think they wanted me to be like on stage. I don't know necessarily as a pastor, but like one of those who would go in and like like a charismatic leader, right? Like, like, like I mean, they they like I I I had the musical theater for it. Um, when I came back from New York City after modeling for a bit and then doing all that photograph and moving image, stoneage, that specialization, I knew that I had a lot of skills, but I didn't necessarily want to bring it back to the church. And they kept trying to get me back to the church. And I was willing, as like, okay, this is my church, but the more I got involved, the more they started to say, you can't do this, you can't do that. And I was like, wait, but those people are doing that, you know, it would they would it it became a lot of like picking and choosing from the Bible, and to me that sounds like what the devil does, right? Like, you know, like like when when when the devil and Jesus have, you know, are going like kind of back and forth, back and forth. Um obviously Jesus knew the Bible as good if not better. And so for someone like me, I grew up thinking like, okay, I might be noticing these things. A lot of these things seem really weird. It seems kind of like a talent show whenever we're here, but this is still my church, right? Like God's God. I I I need to I need to trust that God put me here. God, God has me here for a reason. And I don't know how many weird and weird facial reactions I would get, but I started noticing it as I was like in my 20s. I they they would ask, like, oh, what church are you from, or like, what church do you go to? And I would say Calvary Chapel. And a decent amount of people knew what it was. And for those who didn't, I would just explain. And I'd be like, We're non-denominational, but we we do have a Bible, so it is denomination. You know, it's just we don't abide by the other things. And then if I was like explaining to someone who is Catholic, like I still think Catholicism is a cult, but like it's not it's not whole P in the same way as Calvary Chapel is. And again, you don't know these things until you get out and you start asking enough questions. And when you start making like an uproar, and like I even did social media for a dispensary here, and I would get like a lot of people coming in, they'd be like, Can you don't tell the pastor that you saw me here? And I'm like, Why do I think I've put you on blast? Like, like, first off, that's probably not even good protocol for cannabis. But two, like, I'm not like, do you think I'm that type of person? But what I've learned is that it's appointed a little bit like Scientology, where they don't have their audits, but they have and then and I don't think Kava Chapel is completely unique in this, but they have their prayer chains. And I used to think that these prayer chains were good. But I've since realized, and I've even talked to my mother about this in in a way of like, can I, you know, can I get through to you? But but like the prayer, the prayer chains that they have now are more just like gossip circles. It's like like and and and as I realized this, I looked back and I thought, you know what? There were a lot of times at church and we'd be like, oh, King Lan, have you heard of or had you have you, I don't know, let's just say Ashley. Have you seen Ashley? She really needs Visa. Or did you did you hear about Brian on the prayer train? Yeah, he really needs Visa. And so, like, like, yeah, those types of things were like when I first hear it, I'm like, oh wow, then it's Jesus. But then I realized I'm like, oh, these people are just gossiping, and they're using prayer as their youth gossip. And and I don't know if anybody has ever told you that or if you've heard of that in in the Calvin Chapel community, but it's and that's what I'm saying, like they can't be the only ones doing that, but I know that that was really prevalent. Like my mom gets like maybe daily text messages of like who to pray for. And I know that there are some people in there where it's like, okay, I'm sure you know, this we I don't know, maybe a single mother who has kids, or you know, who might need extra prayer. Like, I know that there are definitely those in there, but what doesn't make sense to me is like I know someone personally who one of like a good friend of mine, I met her after her family left Capri Chapel. And I remember she was very polite asking if I still go there and what I thought about it. But what she told me was my father sexually assaulted me. And when we told the pastor there, he was like, Well, he didn't cheat on you. Like, like, like he didn't cheat on the mom, basically. Like, like like if you didn't cheat, then then you know, you gotta stay married. And the mom was like, What? He just you know sexually assaulted my daughter, and you want me to be okay with that? Like, from a different standpoint, I was thinking, well, isn't that technically cheating? Like, if you, you know, I mean it's first at all disgusting, but to do that with your daughter, and then the church saying, like, well, he's not beating you, you know, he's not cheating on you, like stay together. And because of that, the mom like immediately like divorced the piece out of the church. And I don't blame her because if you know, if I had a child and I came up with something like that, and they're like, Well, that's not really against any rules in the Bible, so you should stay together. Like, that's that's That's kind of the picking and choosing that I alluded to earlier, where I found that they were very much doing that to me. And when I would try using the Bible back, like, well, what about all these bluttenless people or whatever, you know, whatever example I was giving, then I was met with stop being like a disruption, you know, stop being combatative. It's just it's I'm over it. Like there's so much that I could say, but I'm so over it that I don't even like, like it's good for me to dig this up and talk about it, but I just I want to tear down, you know, every cavalry couple song I see. I've I I've tried discussing with my parents, like, okay, you know that people who are in a cult or people who were in a cult, they're more likely to be in a cult again. Like, like I got them to understand that. And I'm like, do you think that you could have left the cult and then joined another one? And then of course that's when they get angry. But I must bring up my family's feedback because I grew up hearing as a child that my like my mom would say, Oh, Michael, your your your like my my aunts and uncles, my C S and D. She would be like, Oh yeah, your CS and DO stop that we were gonna sell our house and join this cult, and they would never see us again when when they left when officially became part of Calvary Chuffle. And so it wasn't even my like elder thoughts. It was me as a child hearing my mother say that, and then always having in the back of the head, why did my experimental family think that Calvary is a cult? Right. So, like I've had a lot of those types of thoughts constantly. Like, you know, I filed them away, and I'm like, okay, it sounds a little ridiculous right now, but after enough times of filing those instances away, I'm like, wait, something is off here. And I think it only seems normal because I grew up in it.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

It was normalized for you. You know, it was something that you didn't know any different. You were so young whenever you were part of the other cult, and even that was normalized, you know, and your parents recognized that that was a cult and then they moved you into something similar. It might have had a different look, a different name, you know. But whenever that's all that you know, like you said, you can't see, you can't see it through a different lens until you're separated from it and you can experience something else and say, wait, this seems normal and that didn't. And even how you're talking about how they use prayer, you know, they're using prayer to sort of mitigate and use it as a way to gossip about people who maybe they have a problem with instead of actually bringing people together to pray for people who may actually need it, like you said, the single mom or the struggling person or the person with a disease or the person having a hard time with their child. You know, they're praying over people gossiping instead of and then training you and other kids to think that that's what prayer is for, you know, instead of, you know, we have to pray for people's health, and we have to pray and use ways that can can help elevate a person and get them better from whatever it is they're struggling from, instead of almost using it as a mockery for gossip. You know, so you see how these really simple things are like used as weapons instead of as methods of healing or or holiness or ways that they are promoted as in the public.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Yeah. Oh yeah. I the only thing I can do now is share this because I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna go, I don't know, what's the term, homicidal, you know? Like I'm not gonna do anything crazy. I know that what I've already said seems crazy enough to other people, but the fact that I've heard other people's covering chapel testimonies, I've read them online, whether it was forums or seen some on YouTube. And for me, I've I've taken a lot of work on myself where I realized, okay, I can't control what else is happening, but I can control my reaction, right? Like I can control how I now tell this story, how I now present myself, because I was telling everybody else's story. I was, you know, I was producing, I was doing all these different things, and I was kind of ignoring the thought at the back of my head of what's this kind of coverage apple monster hunching over me? Because it's really how how I felt. Like it it's just it makes a lot of sense now that I look back at it and I think, oh, that's why I got all those weird facial reactions. That's why people were probably like, oh, this dude doesn't realize he's gonna pull. And and like I that partially makes me feel stupid, but I know I'm not stupid because, like you said, it was normalized. What we think is normal is never normal.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Exactly. And even abuse, when it happens in a place that is supposed to, like I said, be holy, it's supposed to be a place of healing. The leaders there are supposed to be people that are help helping the communities and serving the public. When abuse occurs there, you know, it's like teaching a child that this is love, this is healing, this is this is what you do whenever you're a kid with adults or with whoever it is that that is the abuse, you know, wherever the abuse is coming from. And so then the child gets so confused with associating love and care and support with abuse, you know, and so that becomes normalized too. It's very twisted and inverted how it works in a lot of these cult systems.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

Well, and another example would be like, I grew up, not only was I born and raised in probably suffer, but like I was born and raised with a housekeeper. And this wasn't some like fancy maid service. So, this specific example with my housekeeper, he was from Mexico. Her son was not a citizen here either, yet they went to school with us, they went to church. Um, and she usually went home on the weekends to give her money to her family, but then would come back. And um there's something right and there's something wrong with that. There's something right because my parents were helping a woman whose husband was abusive and they were living here. But obviously, in terms of like technical dynamics, like the son shouldn't have been going to school here, she shouldn't have been living here for like you know, Monday through Friday, sometimes on the weekends too. And when someone's considered, you know, like an illegal, that's I guess that's whether they're here illegally or they're an illegal, right? That's kind of the term that's categorized with those people. And the reason why it was wrong, especially in my situation, was although I'm glad I had a like a female figure because my mom didn't want just a bunch of babysitters, you know, one after the other. She wanted someone consistent and always there. What made it profoundly confusing for someone like me, and I this might not be an exact to be chapel problem, but I know people in the church were aware of this. They knew who she was. They a lot of the people kind of had that because the cover chapel down here is a lot of law enforcement and um kind of business owners. So they like that's that's that's a whole other topic, but that kind of explains why those kind of run the valley in the way. But growing up, I could not tell my friends or anybody that we had a housekeeper. I I couldn't like like I had to pretend like she didn't exist. So you're having what made it very confusing was I had my parents, you know, saying be the perfect person, um, but at the same time, you can't tell anybody about her, you have to lie about her constantly, you have to like it, it very much was through like probably fracturing my brain. And it may not have been exactly the way with some of your survivors, where they had to do extremely horrendous things as children. But for whether they did that or me, you're you're fracturing a child's brain when you start to do those types of things. You tell them that this is the way one world is and this is the way the other world is, and now you have to keep track of those worlds. So I had I had a lot of that. I had a lot of the um the Christianies that people can kind of describe as. Um, and I just had a lot of how can I say this? I had a lot of consistent inconsistency, right? Like inconsistent, like things that were are incongruent kept happening. And for me, it really culminated these last like five, pretty much this last decade, but the last five or so years, I just could not hold it in and ignore that. And like that, that this is normal. Like when I would get pushback from the head pastor, because basically all the way all cavalry chapels work is they have their like pope, right? Their Pope Chuck Smith, and he decides. And so there's a lot of confusion right now in the Calvary Chapel community because people are like, well, then who do we abide by? Because all of our documentation basically says he's supposed to be the person that we abide by. So we have Calvary Chapels right now that are like sticking together, you know, that are stronger than ever. And then you have other ones that are just kind of flipping away and falling away because they don't have that overarching kind of a pope, right? Like they're they're pope in a way. And I know that right here in our community, our pastor is gonna be there for like he's coming up on 50 years. So they have the way they have it is it's like we have our leader, and he's our only leader. And when I've heard other Christian people refer to the Bible about something, the way Calvary Chapel works is we'll say, Oh, Pastor Pete said this, or Pastor said that. And of course, it's okay to reference your pastor, right? But normally your pastor can just be quoting from the Bible, right? Like, isn't that expected at least? And and so as I got older, I realized like, why do I keep saying Pastor Pete or Pastor said this or Pastor said that? And something as small as that, you realize, like, it goes way back, right? It goes and when I was like two or three years old, and I kept hearing them say pastor, pastor. And if we ever had a question, oh, pastor knows, oh, pastor knows. And so it creates this trinity effect, you know, this holy trinity effect of like it's like kind of God and the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and then your pastor. That's that's kind of how I have viewed it. And when I went to other Calvary Chapels, like when I moved to Arizona or even when I lived in New York City, there was a it was called Harvest New York, but it was affiliated with Calvary Chapel. And I remember when I first went to that one, they looked at me like, what are you doing? But but but very much they were like, oh, here's another one. Like, like, like here's a here's one we can, you know, we can fight with or whatever. That's the impression that I got. I remember I took an ex-girlfriend there, and then they looked even more at us, like, ooh, what can we do with you? And that stuck in my mind. But of course, I'm like, you know, I'm trying to be loyal, I'm trying to be loyal to Calvary Chapel. And every time I I would see or hear something like that, and then think something like that, I would go, no kidding, but that's not there. That's you know, they're just they're just excited you're here. And there's so like I I don't know, please ask me questions because I can just keep talking and talking, or we can go through some of the the photos because I know probably travel in and out, and I know that my mom and dad probably got suckered in when she had a miscarriage, and I know that that can't be easy for any woman, right? But not only are you dealing with a lot, you're vulnerable. So I think what my mom got during that vulnerability was oh, the kind of like because Catholicism doesn't really create like a McDonald's where probably Tuffle does. I hope that makes sense. They they they kind of give you, you know, the good bits, they make you feel nice, and it makes any fun. Whereas Catholicism is more like, yeah, you might confess, you might, you know, go up and get the bread, but otherwise, you're it it's it's just kind of like there's no roller coaster of emotion, right? Whereas with Calvary Stapple, it's like they've they've got it sewed down. They they start the worship, they get it into, and that was something they even started to train me to do, where like during the prayer call, they'll have they like they like to turn the music up so that it's very like the ambiance is created. It's kind of like uh, you know, it is, it's a it's it's like uh it's a soundtrack. They like they know what they're doing, they got it very much sound. And I remember one time they told me they're like, oh, you needed to raise the music air, that's why nobody raised their hand for player. Like it was it was too quiet. Like the weird things like that, but I I I think back and laugh, and I'm like, or it's it's weird that we're doing this in the first place. But anyway, like they've got the their formula down so good that I really do compare it to like McDonald's because every time you go to McDonald's, right, it's gonna post the same, whether we're um uh Canada, right, like here or Mexico, they're all pretty much gonna post the same. And Calvin Couple has been run like that. They they they've got they started on the beaches of Southern California, so they have that kind of feel-good story, and then all of a sudden they exploded. And like one of the screenshots that we can bring up later that had gift book. I grew up having a lot of the books and audio TVs, and I remember looking at the prices, like they weren't cheap, they were like 40, 50, 50 dollars for these like multiple diff sets, multiple like tape sets, you know, they were they were still tape back and and like all these different things where it's like I understand there are other methods of consuming religious content, right? But when you're charging these people, to me, that's kind of like what we just hated when we went in and flipped all the tables. He was like, You guys turned this into a marketplace. And I remember one time I would they they asked me to photograph an event, the church, and it's like said, Oh, of course, like I'll do this and I'll just donate, you know, my services fine. And their full auditorium was filled with people like with their little local business teams, whether they're just reselling it, or they have like their little auditing stuff. And at first I thought I was like, okay, this is kind of cool, but we're the dealers in it, or or at least like the gospel. And I remember asking the pastor's wife, I was like, is this okay that we're doing this? Isn't that like what we didn't want? We didn't want us doing biggest at first or like having a marketplace. And she was like, Well, we're all just too supporting each other. So that's really what helped. And I understand, right? Like, we can't support each other, but do we need to fill up our entire church with your business food? Like, like there's I don't know how you feel about that, but for me, that's I that I I never left that day feeling like this. That was like another check mark on you know, things to be wary of. Because again, like I I I don't know how you feel about the Catholic Church, but I I understand that the Catholicism is like the world's big occult. But what we have to remember is like there are people the whole point of public couple was we're not fancy, like Catholicism. We we wear dings, you know, we wear um button down, where it the the whole thing they're selling is like we're the relaxed film. Like give yourself a thought. But then they're like once you get in, the best way I can describe it is like once we get in, and the more involved you get, the less control of yourself you have. And someone like me, like I've I've served a lot in a lot of different facets, but the one thing I hate and I can never stand for is being united.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Yes. Oh my gosh, there's so many good points that you brought up that I have questions about, and I think we can do a dig in. But one thing I wanted to ask about before is if you could give a little bit of background about when Calvary came about, and even if you could explain like how big it's gotten, like some of the locations or what states it's in versus where it started so people can understand, you know, maybe not every single location has 15,000 members, but it still operates in itself as a a megachurch cult.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Oh yeah. Yeah, it the system, absolutely. It's and it's not even just in the Americas, it's gotten, it's gone all over the world. They they I know some of the people from here at our church went to um Georgia, like you know, by Russia. And so they yeah, they they they'll go everywhere. And like I was even used for you could say I volunteered, but I was kind of pressured to go to this instant trip in Mexico and help build a church. And like, I didn't realize I was gonna be doing like construction while stuff up there. It's excuse me, it was a good experience. Like I said, I volunteered, but pretty much I was like thrown with a group of kids that were there like, y'all have issues, we need to fix you. And so, in the same way that like science Scientology has their like field members, right? Like they have that. But they have a very established system where it seems like Southern California is the headquarters, and then once you're established in this area, and they figure, okay, he'll do what we want, then they say, We're gonna promote you, and you're gonna have you're gonna start your own church in Sonata, but we need you to build it. And so they like they like they do that. They're but they'll be like, okay, we see that Russia has some issues going on, right? So we're gonna send you where you're getting a promotion, you're going over there. And I don't want to say that I was trafficked because I wasn't sent overseas or anything like that. I can't explain that, but I know that I was taken advantage of. And if I was, there are definitely other people because I was in no shape to be like, like I have epilepsy, so I've dislocated my shoulders. Um, I I still try to take you know as good care of my body as I can, but they were having me do like, you know, that that type of stuff, like hammering things, and and they were like, you're not doing it the right way. Like the the youth pastor there that was kind of in front of everybody. He's like, You're not doing it the right way. Let me show you again. And so then I like I can't actually like have full ro the rotation of my shoulder just because of my injury. So little things like that as well, where I'm like, you realize, like, you know what I'm dealing with, right? Like, like they did let me sleep in because they're like, we don't want you having a seat here, but it was like that's the type of trafficking I personally witnessed and was a part of. And I know that what they're doing is they're making these people feel like the second coming or whatever they need to in order to get those families to actually move. And it's hard because when this church officially went up here in Alfonso, there was like the schism that happened because Calvary Chapel was like, We're not gonna take any loans, we're not gonna do anything of the world in that way. But then they were like, never mind, just kidding. We're we're having, you know, we're we're we're signing a loan. And because of that, like half the church down. Here split up and like went and started a separate one. So the reason I bring that up is because someone else who I know, like I could recommend for the podcast. She was part of a different series of churches here in the valley. And she personally said that she was doing, like, she would some some might call it babysitting, but she was helping take care of kids when she was like, I don't know, not even a teenager. So for her, that's considered like she personally considers that child abuse. Like, I know my sister knew how to change my diaper, and she was only a year and a half older than me. So, like, if my sister were changing my diaper at three years old, like for me, I used to think that's cute. But now I realize, like, wait, I think they train women down here to kind of be the caretaker, which is obviously okay if that's what a woman wants to do. But when you start putting people in these specific roles, and then I'm hearing those stories and also experiencing it, I'm like, wait, you're on to something. And that same one who told me of her trafficking and seeing it, she was like, I think that now this is gonna be a claim what I'm about to say that might not be true, but there's a lot of evidence to support it that Calvary Chapel, First Christian, and Christ community, those were like the big three Christian churches here in Vimperal Valley. And she was like, I know they have something going on with trafficking because I saw it myself and the other two. She was never part of Calvary Chapel, but she was involved in a lot of she was she was part of like a radio station down here that was owned and operated by like a different churching group. So she was involved in a lot and heard a lot. And when she told me, I don't know, maybe like four years ago, that there was whole activity going on, and I think she was kind of like trying to give me like a you know like a little type of thing. And I think she was trying to see where my head was at as well. And I kept that at the back of my head, like I do with a lot of other things, and I knew like, okay, is she saying this, but hasn't like publicly come out and said like in like the way that I'm doing now? She may not want to, but she obviously telling me like these things because people don't need to be fed. And I started to hear a lot of that, like even when I was there in Arizona, and I brought up like, oh yeah, you have to go to Calvary Chapel, and there's one right down the road. And I remember going to that one and getting like a it was bigger than ours, it was nicer, but there was still something so off about it. Like I was I was expecting to walk in and be welcome because I'm like, oh, this is the Calvary Chapel report. And then as soon as I walked in, they were like, like I went into the auditorium and then they told me, Oh, you can't sit here because you have a backpack, but we can hold your backpack for you. And I thought, oh, that's kind of strange. Like, I don't I don't know, negative food role, they're trying to prevent multiple food or something. But when I would stare over there in Arizona, like, oh yeah, like like pretty much this last year when I officially like put my foot down, when I would stare, like, oh yeah, they're a cult, like, and we have to be careful. I had I had a good receptive response, but the farthest I've ever gotten with my parents is just well, your paternity's a cult. And I'm like, well, yeah, technically it is. Like when I joined the paternity in college, like I guess technically one of that is a cult, you're right. But it's it's it's only like like they're they're still not willing to admit that what describes the cult also describes public double. Like, you know, there's there's only one chain of command, right? Like there's us and then type of grouping. They've like even when I look up and show my parents, I'm like, you realize that clergymen are in the top and psychopathic career. And they're like, Well, why? And I explain to them, well, because what does the clergyman do? Like the pastor of the church, it's like all about him and what he said. And everybody kind of lifts him up on this human pedestal, right? Like on the holy pedestal. And don't you think that someone like our pastor passes too doesn't be like you know how they think psychopaths have like a not only are they charismatic for those charismatic readers, but it's like they make you feel like they're the only person in the whole world. And they like they have that like like he does that, his wife has the love bottles. Um it's just like like I always felt like something was so weird when I would talk with them. But again, I was just trying to be respectful, right? It was this was normalized funny, and I had to go through a lot of uncomfortably. So realized, okay, Caleb, you're not you're not misreading things, you're not fully too. And if you're only feeling one appearance, okay, that's fine. If you were if only one person told you, then okay, that might be a little questionable. But the fact that people keep telling people making things because they probably should speak out more and more and more. I had other people thinking, oh please, you know, don't don't tell the pastor on anywhere, you know, like we like to drink, like like our family likes to drink, and it's just like, okay, that's fine, but why are you confessing that to me? Like, like, like, like I thought that a lot of people were living the you know, I'm I I understand because of because of my autism as well. I understand I can be a bit elite, and I didn't know I was off to chicken till a couple of neighborhoods, and that's and I don't want to blame my parents because of that, but like kind of asking because of Calvary, there was documentation that like you know, I was walking on my tiptoes instead of like like one year, like sacrifice octum. Also, like I wasn't responding correctly. Like, if like they wrote in my baby diary that like my sister stuck on my stomach and I was laughing. So, like, yeah, they're they're like all kinds of things. And so instead of taking me to get seen by a specialist or anything like that, my parents can't really just pray, right? And prayer is great, obviously, but when you aren't when you're I don't even know how to say it. I hope you I hope you understand what I'm trying to get at. But like when you when you have a child, you're supposed to do everything you can, right? And like they suppose to obviously pray for them, but not make prayer the only thing.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

I hope that's it's like a it's like a method of control. Like they want you to rely solely on them. Everything else doesn't matter. If you have a problem, if your child has a problem, we're gonna take care of it, we're gonna pray over it. You don't need the doctors, you need us, us, us, us, us. You don't need them. You know, it's like a way to compartmentalize control by making everything inside the church. You have to take care of the problem here, you can take care of it here. You know, it makes you like gaslight yourself. Oh, well, let's just pray over the child. You're right, I don't need to go to the doctor. The prayer here is so powerful, it's gonna heal my child, you know. It's a method of control, it makes you solely rely on them instead of doing the healthy thing of creating a community of all different types of people that you can lean on. They make you go just to the people that are in the church.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

And there was even this one doctor that a lot of the ladies in the church knew, and even my mom knew. And interestingly enough, all those women also had like opioid prescriptions. Like they had abilitating issues, but I also don't know what came first. The you know, the the lack of care for the body or the opiate prescription. And he was like the one that all the women in that community were going to. So again, that's like don't have direct evidence of that because that wasn't, I wasn't going there. But the fact that like one of my mom's close friends shared that with me one time, and she would probably like tie on her commodity or whatever it is. And like things like that are also where I'm like, okay, it's the control method that you talked about, but if they can get away with it, they're gonna get away with it. And and it's just I know that that's not only a Calvary Chapel issue. I know that there are doctors everywhere, you know, writing prescriptions if they probably student be. But the fact that like all these old ladies at the church knew of this one doctor that they could go to and get anything. Um, that's why I say like the the cavalry couple here, at least, I don't know how like the bigger ones are, but I know the the one here because it's with it it's like an impoverished community. They're all all the Calvary Chapel people there are like the business owners or law enforcement people. And that's pretty much like when you're involved in that, you kind of have the ability to run an area.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Absolutely. And if I could too, I want to confirm and validate what you were talking about with witnessing human trafficking. I'm gonna read the definition of what human trafficking is. It's also known as trafficking in persons, and it's a crime that involves compelling or coercing a person to provide labor or services or to engage in commercial sex acts. The coercion can be subtle or overt, physical or psychological. Exploitation of a minor for commercial sex is human trafficking, regardless of whether any form of force, fraud, or coercion is used. So you're explaining human trafficking, labor trafficking that was used and had a nice label on it. Hey, you're gonna, you're doing good. You're gonna help build us a church and you're gonna be proud of it. And you're lucky, you get to do this, you're chosen, you get to go do all this hard labor. We don't even need to hire anybody. We have you. You know, I had a I had an interview on here with a guy named Cash Colligan who was in the music industry growing up and had a band and got a little bit of you know fame and notoriety with a band that he had and realized that, you know, he wasn't being paid for what he was doing. Even though he was working his butt off, they weren't paying him. And he talks about that. That was labor trafficking. Even though it looks like he was in public, there wasn't Forcer or people, you know, that were chaining him down and forcing him to do stuff. He was on stage on his own volition. He wasn't getting compensated for what he was doing, but it was dressed up as you get famous, you get to be a musician, you know. And so he talks about that a lot and says how um, I think I have a quote by him. He said on recently on social media, he had this post that said, You're so weird. And then he goes, Thanks. I was labor trafficked as a child by celebrities, and they called it being a musician. And so you see how like trafficking, it doesn't have to be this thing that we see in movies where it's a matter of force, somebody jumping out of an alley, kidnapping you, chaining you up, and forcing you to do labor or sex. This can be coercion, somebody saying to you, you know, wow, you're so lucky. Look, we're gonna offer you the opportunity, even though you're sick, you have epilepsy, this is not good for your health. You're so lucky that you get to serve God and do this church, uh, build this church for us, you know? And when they already have all those methods of control, they've already manipulated you since you were a child, they've groomed you, they've made you idolize them and worship them and obey them. No, nobody's gonna say no to that. You don't do that. If you do, then you're you're gonna be an outcast in the church. You're all of a sudden gonna be the one getting being texted to everybody. You guys got to pray for Caleb. He's lost his way and he said no to this opportunity of of this, you know, building this new church for us, you know. So it's like they make you gaslight yourself and then they'll outcast anybody that tries to go against the grain. And so you don't like you say yes to everything, and you don't realize till in hindsight that, like, wait, that wasn't right. You know, like I wasn't in the, like, I shouldn't have been doing that, period. Like my health problems and like I'm not a construction person. They should have hired somebody to like do this, you know. And so you realize like these things, like they hide in plain sight, and it's really easy to gaslight yourself because human trafficking and these different crimes against humanity, it doesn't always look like the forceful, violent ways that it does in movies that Hollywood portrays it as. It's very subtle most of the time. In fact, a lot of the guests on my podcast that were trafficked still went to school every day. They didn't have, they didn't walk around with chains. You know, they were going to school, they were participating in society, playing sports, and then at night they're being trafficked and they weren't, you know, fighting it and running away, you know, even though it's where they wanted to, it's just normalized for them. They had to say yes, they were groomed to say yes. And if they didn't, they were punished, you know, and so it's it's just like it's another method of control. So I just wanted to share that because even though I know you're not on here making allegations of like, oh my gosh, I was human trafficked and I saw this. This is something that you're observing and sharing. It shows how these these different things can look. You know, it's not how it looks in movies. And I do believe that that is a form of human trafficking, what you went through. I think that that's labor trafficking, you know, and they dressed it up as making you feel good about it and lucky, and they didn't really give you an opportunity to say no because they wanted you to climb the ranks. They were they were grooming you to look at it like an opportunity instead of a crime.

SPEAKER_03 58:33

Thank you for reading that because yeah, you're right. Reading that, I can't argue at all. I'm I they they didn't tell me, hey, you're gonna come over here and do folding, you know, like wheelbarrows and all this stuff. Like they were just like, oh, we have a great mission opportunity for you. Yes. And and we think you'd be great for it, Rizona, the screen break. You know, it was it was a lot of yeah, it was a lot of yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

And so you do it not realizing, like, because you feel good. You're like, yes, like let's go. Like, I'm so honored, you know. But that is how they get that's that's the best way of quote unquote human trafficking, is when you can get somebody that's not fighting you, that you don't have to put in chains. And they do that through consistent grooming, manipulation, love bombing, you know, all the ways to make somebody obey and to almost fear saying no, because you want to shine, like you want to look good, you know, you've devoted your whole life to this church. Why would you say no? Even while you're there, why would you say no? And you're like, wait, I wasn't expecting this. But they look at me like a leader and they gave me this opportunity, like I have to do this. You know, I'm already here, like I'm gonna do it. And, you know, it's it's exploitation, it's human exploitation. And that doesn't, like I said, it doesn't look like the the person in wearing black jumping out of the alleyway. This is coercion and it's love bombing, and it's all all the psychopathic things, you know, that that people do in order to control somebody.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

And I know that my parents aren't stupid. I think what my parents are just like they they both had alcoholic fathers, they birthed at the same length for my mom worked in the field, my dad did too, but not as much as my mom. And so I know like my parents have done a lot. They just they're they're ignorant and they are okay with removing ignorance. And part of me thinks, like, what kind of you know, devil contact have they sign where they just you know they're they're stuck here where they were born and raised, but also I think like you know, they died a lot for that church, and they probably see it as like this is here because of us. So we're you know, this is part of us, and thank God I don't have that anymore. I'm not a multiple, but it I'm I know who I am, but these last couple of years have been me really well figuring out okay, Caleb, what are you going to present to the world because you told, you know, you did plenty of Calvary Chapel work where you're only talking about Calvary Chapel or even in the news when we're talking about other people. Um, or whether it was musical theater, you know, I was being a character, but now the time where I'm like, okay, I don't need to do what my parents raise me. I can respectfully decline, I can move forward. And part of that moving forward is talking about this because these are thoughts that I've had in my head or that I've shared with a person who's in there, but never altogether like good. So it is it is a lot. And pardon if if it's if it's you know, I really am dumping enchantments, but I'm doing great. Thank you. As soon as I have something that comes to mind, I'm like, wait, let me shoot that in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:03

No, you're doing amazing, and this is a big topic. Like you're talking about a specific church that you belong to, but we're talking, you know, we've been talking since we've met each other, and and right before we were recording, just about cults proliferate everywhere. Like this same model, you can take the model that they used in Calvary and it's duplicated in personal development, it's duplicated in things like nonprofits, you know, there's all kinds of ways that like cult behavior, Freemasons, um, it proliferates in these different aspects of society, but it's right in front of us. So the people that are walking by and driving by these different establishments or churches or Masonic lodges, it's just part of the community. You know, there can't be anything bad happening there. Like I'm literally looking at it, you know, it's in plain sight. Bad things hide in the alleys, you know, they hide in the dark. This is right in front of me and it's public. But that's exactly where the best cults hide, you know, is in plain sight because that's that's the allure of it. And then just how you were saying with your mother having a miscarriage, they feast on vulnerabilities. So a person goes to church vulnerable, harmed, hurt, recovering, suffering, looking for refuge, looking for people who will care for them, looking for the Holy Spirit to heal. And they're met with people with psychopathic tendencies that say, oh, there's one we can pray on. They're weak right now. I'm catching them in a weak moment. I'm gonna take advantage of them and exploit them, and they're gonna be really easy because they're already coming in here wanting refuge and healing. And I'm gonna give them that magic pill, but it's not gonna come from where they want it to come from. It's not gonna come from the Holy Spirit. It's gonna come from mind control and abuse and manipulation, and they're gonna, they're gonna feed right into it because they're vulnerable. And so vulnerability is like a huge thing. And then they'll create it right from the beginning. Like for you as a child, you know, they create it, they create your vulnerabilities. You weren't born vulnerable. Well, you are because you're a child, but like children are born very resilient, you know, and they take careful measures to like break down that resilience, to create obedience, to create a child that is made to be outcasted if he asks questions like you always did. And I love that about you that you were like rebellious and always questioned, like, well, why are we doing this? And why are we doing that? But that's what they don't want, and they make you feel weird if you do that. So you learn to sort of like, okay, I can't ask questions because I'm the only one. So that must mean that I'm weird, you know, like I'm the bad kid if I'm asking questions. So I'm just not gonna ask them anymore. And so from a really early age, it's like they're instilling disobedience and control, and you can only listen to us, you know, don't ask questions, like they're they're not relevant here, like they they don't matter. And and the answer to it, you know, is what we tell you it is. It's not what you're speculating. And so it's like you lose your your agency to your own soul, to your heart, to your free thought.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

They want to have and be able to pull the strings of that, and they do that through people that are already vulnerable or by creating vulnerability in you know, fresh minds and in the small kids.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:17

And part of I I had two things I wanted to say. The your your words made me think of Avatromdi because I worked there in college, and I never thought about it as a cult until after. But I realized, especially when this was when Mike Brexit was the CEO, and he was basically saying, like, we're an exclusive brand, you know, like yeah, like it like if our brand if our basically he was going, he's doing everything politically incorrect, but he was obviously having a ton of success. And I remember we didn't have an Abercrombie where down here, we only had a holster, but I remember still thinking because they used to like cover up so. Walls right and they would have um they would have like basically it shuttered so that it kind of looked like a barbled side. And when I was recruited to work at Abercrombian College, I think I was a perfect candidate because I think I probably didn't walk with my head out high as much as I do now. And also, like what we've said, if you have been in a cult, you're more likely to be in another cult, right? And I know Abercrombie and Sitch is a clothing brand, but they very much like the fashion industry. I know from working in it, the fashion industry was like a cult. And the way Abercrombie was running was there's people who are skinny enough to fit into our clothes, and there's people who aren't. And those people we hate people, right? Like, like it was it was that type of mentality. And I remember even coming in, like going in my freshman year and working at all throughout college, like we would get mad when the Asians would mess up the clothes because then we had to fix, which is so stupid, right? Like, but I but but but but I didn't walk in having that attitude, I walked in being something they could mold. And that's basically what you're saying with Calvary is and and and you're right, like I didn't think about that because again, I'm being normalized in this, and you know, it's just I'm I'm growing up exactly in this, but above crombie, and even not just at the crumbie, I think Penn State's a bit of a cult. I've said that in the past, and I I and I'll say that again only because when I got to Penn State, it was when the whole industry scandal happened. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was from Pennsylvania, so that was like a big thing. Where yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:54

Everybody knew about that, right? And at least in Pennsylvania and probably on that whole East Coast area, like everybody's cute, right? Like everybody knew that. And I remember thinking, like, wait, this man saw a little boy getting cut, told who he was supposed to, but didn't tell the police. And I just remember thinking, like, I don't know if I'm okay with that. And um, and but but still being there in my freshman year, and everybody was like, So Pa, we love you. And and and I get it because it was multi-generational at that point. Like Penn State has like third generation, sometimes fourth generation Penn Staters. I don't think I ever met a fourth generation, but I met a lot of third generation Penn Staters. And when you do that, it becomes generational, right? It's it it becomes a cult. Like that's really what it becomes. So for a while, I was kind of going from cult to cult to cult, and I understand because like when I when your entire personality has been erased, plus like I didn't know I was autistic. So what I found out recently was I was basically masking, I was using what I learned in musical theater all those years and just kind of adapting to wherever I was put, um, which I don't know if that's like a survival mechanism, but really it's just right, it's what I had in here. But understanding that like the cult could be the church that you're going to, the cult could also be the athletic group that you're a part of. Like, you know, I don't I don't I don't want people to all of a sudden sort of like you know pointing fingers everywhere, but right, but like the cult is probably what you don't think believe.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:39

A hundred million percent. You're so right about that. And that's why this topic is so important because it surrounds us. Like cults have grown to such an enormous level, even hiding in places like companies, you know, hiding in fraternities and colleges, and they're all dressed up as glitz and glamour. You know, it's it's of course there's underground cults, of course, but they've moved mainstream and they've been able to do it so effortlessly because they're so good at manipulating and coercing and coming off as being charming, and they put all the right people in place to say all the right things and they look exactly how we look at a professional to look, you know, they're wearing suits and ties or jeans and t-shirts and they're personable, they're approachable, you know. But it's it's the intention behind what they're doing that is evil. But unless you're you know what to look for, it goes right over your head because it doesn't sound coercive and manipulative and violent and evil. Like it's they say all the right things, you know, and so it's it's so important that we talk about this because they're always they're looking for the vulnerabilities. Like cults are always like trying to leech on to all of us everywhere. And a lot of us are like, well, I'm not a victim, like I work, I'm strong, like I'm good, you know, I grew up in a healthy family. Like I'll never, I'm not, I'm not ever gonna be in a cult. But it's like, oh yeah, because if you have one little vulnerability in your life, if you have a miscarriage, which happens to many women, and you're down, and that's where you go is to seek refuge is at church. Like you just became a victim. And unless you know that you could that you just became one, you are gonna continue to be one unless you have the discernment to understand, you know, what you're walking into and if the person in front of you what their intention is for you, you know, and so it's it's just so it's it's insidious. And then these cases, and if it's okay with you, I think it would be great to talk about some of these, this amazing slideshow that you put together. Um, but the other thing, like so much of this abuse sometimes can be publicized, but it's like they'll put out one little blurb and then it just gets covered up. And unless you're taking a screenshot of it, like nobody knows about it, but they're like, Well, we published it, we did our job, like it's fine, you know, just forget about it. But it's like this just flies under the radar, you know, and uh you the slideshow that you have is proof of that. And I thought maybe we could go through that. Yeah, okay, I'm gonna bring this up and then we can go through it at your pace. Just tell me when to to move the the slide to the next one. Can you see this?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:12

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:15

Yeah, so this one was one that like I I need like if you Google Calvary Chapel, right? You're only gonna get their recent stuff because they've been doing a lot of recent, like whether it's their live streams, whatever it is, since there's so many different Calvary Chapels, all those results pop up first. However, in order to get this, all you gotta do is change your date range from like, I think I put like 1970 to like 2010, maybe, and or maybe even 2005. And that's how I stumbled upon this. And I'm like, oh, no wonder they want to cover something like this up.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

100%. And were most of these, and this is in California.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

Have most of the cases that you researched, were they in California, or have you found cases of this all around the world, these same type of sexual abuse and abuse allegations that made the news?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:16

Most of them, I believe, are in California. Yeah. And and it makes sense because it started along the coast right here. Yeah, there are a time on the aloe orange area. And then they just kind of like, you know, it was like reverse manifesting. They started moving eastward.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

And this should be really eye-opening for people too, because again, these are people in positions of power that a lot of times we put there, you know, because they continue to abuse and we don't stop them, and they end up becoming things like Bible teachers, you know, this heading for people listening and not watching. Bible teacher jailed in underage sex case. And then it says a Bible teacher at Calvary Chapel has been arrested on suspicion of having sex with a pastor's teenage daughter. And so this is a Bible teacher. You think about all the access to children that this person has and probably how respected he was to where parents didn't even question their kids and you know, uh teenagers being maybe alone with him, you know, for this Bible teaching that he did. So I'll go to the next one.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

Oh, yeah, and that one's a New York Times one, right? I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

Yeah, Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:30

Yeah, the LA Times, yeah. Yeah, and fundamentalist kind of religion, and it's uh 12,000 people on Sundays and offers the vast up. So then, yeah, and that was 90, 1990. I wanted the just the every everything that we compiled right here. I just kind of wanted like a a broad spectrum showing everything. And this one was Pastor Chuck Smith's uh 25th anniversary. And so, and it even kind of says right there at the beginning, like in the era of fallen provangelists, you know, they're trying to praise him up on a pedestal and make him be like not like the pastors you see on TV.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

And if this was 1990, I mean we're in 2026 now, so you can just imagine almost 40 years, you know, how big is this now if back then it was drawing in, you know, over 10,000 people on Sundays.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:35

Oh yeah. Um yeah, this one doesn't fall down a bit. Yeah, and Costa makes uh the Reverend Antener. So he like I don't know all these, but I've heard of them at least once, and especially Chuck Smith. Like, like I said, he's like the Pope. And I never realized how weird that was until I started to get out of town that like people don't worship their past things.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

And I love how they call that prostitution investigation when it was probably a human trafficking investigation. You know, it's interesting how they twist words around, but you can kind of read between the lines of what was likely happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:31

Oh my goodness. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:35

Okay, yeah. So this is a good example of the books that they sell, like history's last chapter, Study and Revelation. And Skip isn't the only one who has these books. He I think he's written the most out of all of them. But again, that was published like before 2000. And my parents have so many of those books, the audio studies, the tapes, and these books weren't cheap. They would sell them for at least like 30, 40. I don't know. I know one of the CD sets here in our house, I forget where it is, but the last time I saw it, it said like $69.99. And I mean, like, that's a lot for CDs when we're supposed to only do depending on the Bible. And that took me a lot of years to like word that way. But once I finally worded it that way, I was like, well, first of all, we're supposed to be non-denominational, which means we don't have these an attendant yet. All of like the head pastors are pushing their books, and we would have these at our at our church for sale, obviously they until they had them online or as the internet was blowing up. But it to me, it this seems like how can you argue that this wasn't what Jesus was flipping over in the synagogue? Like, I don't know what this is, if it's not that.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:00

I interviewed a girl that was in the Nexium cult, which was a really big deal in sort of the near past. I feel like it's one of the bigger cult stories that was publicized on, I would say, a global level. I think it went beyond national, but the Nexium cult was a really big deal and that hid in plain sight too in personal development. And the girl that I interviewed in India Oxenberg, she talked about how this was a big part of their structure. They would have you buy a personal development course and they'd sort of promote it like this is the only thing that you need. You know, you need to come here and get this, and you're gonna be healed, or you're gonna figure out what you want, or you know, you're gonna you're gonna be the success that you want. After they finish that, there's something else that you have to buy. And if you don't, you're outcasted and you're not included, and you can't grow in the organization and you're sort of gaslit. You know, like what do you mean? Like this helped you so much. Like, imagine what what this next course could do, you know. And so they get you to keep buying these things and then to make you feel bad if you don't. And then this is the things that they sell are the only, this is what they tell you. They're the only things that can help you get from point A to point B. You can go look at everything else in the world, and it's not going to be as good as what we are selling you. And so they make you commit to keep buying and buying and buying and buying. And then you've already come so far, they keep setting the goalpost. And so they're basically they're manipulating you into thinking that the only way to play is to pay, you know, and and if you don't, you can't grow in the church. And it's another method of control, too, because they're they're making you purchase and learn the the things that they want you to, not something that you can go look up online or a course that you can take elsewhere, not something free. It has to be what they give you. And so your uh evidence here and talking about this part, it really validates a lot of other testimonies I've heard of these these cults that kind of hide in plain sight and their their methods and their kind of theology for how they get people invested. They literally get you invested through your money in your pockets.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:17

Oh, it's absolutely you said control and coercion, absolutely. It's mind-boggling that like I'm I'm partially mind-boggled that it took me this long to understand all this, but also again, you you said it perfectly. Like it was normal out for me. I did not like if even if I had questions, I I probably would have gotten some VX answer. Like, like one time for a Wednesday Bible study, I asked a question. It was it was at the church, but it was maybe only like, I don't know, 30 of us because it was a Wednesday Bible study and movies small. And I raised my hand and I asked the the scripture was um how people they they like the the recompense of their sin and how when people abandon the Holy Ghost or and people are okay doing something like that. And I I raised my hand and I asked, Oh, is that similar to cognitive dissonance in psychology? There's cognitive dissonance. And I'm sure you know what that is, because yeah, this this whole world is kind of your territory. But my pastor didn't know what cognitive dissonance was, and I tried briefly explaining it, but his way of answering me was he just looked back at the Bible and kept reading the verse. Like he didn't he he didn't give any personal anecdote, he didn't do anything, he just said he just looked back at the Bible, read the verse, and then looked up and just looked at me like You got that? And I was just like, wait, this is really off because there are like other people in this room. Why is why but but I understood what he was doing. It was the don't ask questions. I probably don't know what you're talking about, so I'm just gonna reread what I read. And that's fine for us to be ignorant, right? Like ignorant isn't a bad word per se. It's when we choose to remain ignorant, yes, that we are we're we're we're not just doing ourselves wrong, we're mixing other people. And it it if it wasn't like I know the whole point of those types of audiobooks and everything was obviously bring people closer to God. But if we didn't have that audiobook, we were like, oh, you didn't get this new book, you didn't get you know smith newest audio TV. Well, I have it. And it it you know, it became a status thing. It's it's it's everything that you said plus it became a status thing. Like when people would come over, they would see our college double collection. And it I mean we can go back to looking at that, but I just I I got reminded of yes, uh abuse that I received, but something that also lingered in my mind. I remember some of the kids coming over when I was I was maybe like eight years old, Benning, old enough to remember and to know when things are kind of weird, right? And um my mom had us with some of the other boys from church, like had us all take a shower together. And so nothing weird happened, but a different time, a friend from school came over, and it was around the same age. But what made it weird was like when it was trying to take its own mom was like, Oh, do you want to take a bath together? And I I'm not gonna say that it's like on couple made my mom think that way, but there was just like there were no boundaries. Yes. And I and and and I know that that itself, like that in itself is considered the beam. When there are like no boundaries, and it made me think what was going on when I wasn't there, because I know I'm a young age, so I did have some for living that, but I'm like, if this is what I'm kind of doing with him, like looking weird at like what did my brother know Fifth to go through? And I tried talking to them about it. My brother's wife acknowledges that Calvin Truffle is a pole. Like, like she was like, Yeah, the first time I came down and visited the area, I was like, what the heck is this? But he also she has like committed to Catholicism. Like they like that structure, they like that, you know, but it's like this. They they like that. And again, I I will tell them already, like, well, probably uh you know, Catholicism is the like the world's biggest, or one of the world's biggest cultural. But I at least respect that he understood when convicted to like this is not right. And even last year when I was kind of coming out of all this and I was on the phone with one like Evan, he was like, Yeah, I remember when we went there for the youth group when I was a teenager, and I saw how like the pastive kids had the knife with clothes, and that didn't make sense to me. It was like, that's not like how did the pastive kids have like the knife with sunglasses, like the name brand first and everything. She was like, that never made sense to me. And if he told me that, I was like, you know what, pretty much or telling, I was like, you know what, that's a really good point. Like, talk to you for understanding that as a child. Because I mean you're a teenager, but you're still a child, and she understood that. And I think what made it the only reason like some of her family was willing to is because they saw this the best that my family started to have. Like my dad was doing well with his job, my mom was getting promoted. We had this big house or whatever, and I came to the rest of my family since we were super poor, they were like, oh, it must be Calvary Travel. Calvary travel, it must be the reason why they're such food. So we did have a lot of family. I remember at one point, like some of the photos that we can bring up, like my um, I think I took a photo of my grandmother being baptized, but like I know she had no idea what was happening. It was just because some of the some of my aunts were like, oh, let's get some of this copy puffle voodoo, man. Let's let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:34

Totally. Yeah, and you know, selling things like this, it's like the control of information. We know that mainstream media, that's what they're masters at, is like cultivating narratives and then put and then just dispersing them to as many people as possible that will listen to it or hear it. And that's what these churches are doing with creating their own literature and selling it. You know, they're controlling the information. It's just another layer of control that's embedded into the cult. And so I'll keep scrolling. Man, we could do like a whole talk just on like one of these topics. It's like they're all so important. So let's talk about this one.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:14

Oh, yeah, here's an alleged nearly one million dollars embezzled from probably chapel tumor hills.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:23

Oh my gosh. Talking about selling books and everything, like, where's this money going from?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:38

Another embezzlement. Oh my gosh. Wolves in sheep's clothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:47

Yeah. It makes me want to be like a sheep in wolf's clothing just so that I don't get you know, just so that I look scary, but you know, if they get to know me, they're like, Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:02

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:04

And then a port, yeah, sex hearing and embezzlement. Another one. Yeah, you know, healed.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:12

Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:15

Yeah, and that's 2010. And updated, yeah, like five years later. But these things go on and on. And like I don't want this to be the church, you know, that I grew up in, but I can't deny reality either. 100%. Oh, an indifference, yeah. This is like an initial rise in the church. Was yeah, like it was only like there's like less than 30 people on the beaches, and all they it was like there, and and who knows if this is even real, but they think that's what they tell us. They tell us that it started like John the Baptist, and instead of John the Baptist, we got like like this is this is literally what we've been raised in by if I can remember, I knew Chuck Smith's name before I knew the apostles. Oh yeah, and this was in Florida, so as we got to the other side of the country, and they couldn't escape it. And last year, funny enough, when I was coming out about all these things and putting stuff online, and one of the pastors from a probably shop over there in Florida, all of a sudden I saw her looking at my incident story, and I was like, people must be talking to people. Why is this lady from the other side of the country who has no idea who she is? Why is she looking at my story?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

Oh, no way. Wow. Did you connect with her at all?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:47

No, I I I screenshotted it though, so I know I'm not crazy, but what she says is it it showed me that like the the coffee chapel network was talking, people weren't liking what I was doing. And when I looked on her profile though, like I mean, I've I've done digital marketing for over a decade, so I hate to say it, but like I can read a photo, I can read an Instagram profile very much so, but a photo. And like, even though her profile was private, she had like I don't know, two of the MLMs we're a part of. And then um I'm only gonna say that's you know, for transparency, I'm not trying to gossip, but she literally looked like and and I can tell when someone's smiling fades, like like from being on both sides of the camera, I can tell when someone's genuine. And the fact that she has like a fake guest profile, they can her her like multiple MLMs that she's a part of that's just thing. I was like, this is why Calvary Chapel's falling apart, because they I don't know if it's so much of the grieve, but like we can't say Calvary Chapel is all you are, but then start getting greedy and dipping your fingers into all this other stuff, especially an MLM. Like, nobody can really argue with the palm people, but the fact that they're like they're clearly not relying only on God. And that's if you know, you can't, it's it's kind of like in the same way that my cousin noticed that the pastor's kids had the nice clothing. Like, that shouldn't be obviously he gets some money from what we tied, but if you're dedicating yourself to the Lord, you shouldn't be concerned about if your kids have like you know, branding sunglasses and and all this stuff. And and and I know that you can probably argue with it back and forth, back and forth, but I just I I don't think that's okay. Like if I was gonna be a pastor and have kids, I would only want to live minimally, right? Like, I don't know about you, but I would I would kind of follow like what Jesus said, where like, okay, if a town doesn't like you, like take the dust off your feet and get out of it, like and and and only carry your soccer with you, that's it, or pass away. And some people can take that literally. I would I would think that that's what a good church or or or a godly, not even just a church, but a godly place is doing. And if those people are have a great relationship with God, they're they're not gonna be getting involved with stuff like this. Like obviously you're not supposed to judge a person for the religion or what judge you're not supposed to judge a person or what is it? You're not supposed to judge a religion based off a person, but when you have enough instances like this, it's like you you can judge the fruit, right? You can judge that something is toxic about this fruit.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:56

Yes. I couldn't agree more with you.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:06

Yeah, and that's from 2003. And Raw Reese, oh yeah, he's another Cave Chuffle kind of poet. He he had I forget exactly what his coming was, where he was like, I think he was gonna like kill himself and then he read a note um, knew it was some god or something. That's that's one of his stories, but yeah, Rawl Reese as well. He'll I would I would say like he would probably like I think the traffic or Calvary Trapple of Henderson. Um, I think when I put this one in okay, yeah, I was just trying to get official date of when they like this one they filed on 1991. Gotcha. Yeah, because because some people obviously have never heard of this, but when I think like yeah, I think I titled it 34 years old in 1991. So I meant like Helvry, like like Helvety Trouble by that point has been around for like 30 years. Because if we're seeing that it was in 91 and then doing the math from some of the other ones when it started with like 25 people, I was just trying to categorize and make like a timeline for myself. Like I don't think this has any um like any arrests or anything like that. That seems like extra, extra evidence of what's going on with Helena. Okay, yeah, so like that one I put in there, even though it's a bit more recent, that's basically how a lot of the Cali couple started. Um like they were meeting here at my house for years, and then they excuse me, like they asked my parents to host a Bible study. Um kind of like what you said, the coercion and control, like that's how it starts. They're like, oh, you're saving us by letting us meet here. We're you know, you're gonna you're gonna either do great things or God's gonna reward you greatly told us. Um like our whole living room was like a bunch of people there. Um, as I got older, they stopped because we were meeting in a school for a while, and then we met in a like they finally built the church. But apparently that's what every couple tends to do in when they're not fully established, like the megatrift ones are in LA. They kind of I don't want to say they leave with around, but they kind of do things like this, they'll meet at a Ramada Inn or they'll meet somewhere else for save up their money, get their audience, and then they officially make their huge film. And I and I know even the property here, it's pretty massive, and they they're saving up to buy the property next to it because they want to have like a little housing development for themselves. It's like like they really do want to create a compound. The way that you read, like, I don't know, the children of God had or uh, you know, all these different ones. Like, I think I I think the children of God changed their names, but like any of those documents you you read or here, that's pretty much what Calvary Touple is doing here in El Cinco. Like I didn't even realize that until I said it, but yeah, they're creating like a compound and they're saving up right now to buy the property in Mexico. And these are like huge, huge, you know, like days-to-go props there, so they're huge loss. And the only thing I can think of is like they meet people, like we talked about with my mom, or you know, super vulnerable moment. Um let me wrong place, wrong times.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:59

And this one, this article was published in 2021. So this one's a lot more recent that they're doing this. And so you can assume that, you know, this pattern is still obviously continuing to this day and probably way more rampant than it was even five years ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:18

Okay, now this one was an interesting one. Yeah, like he has he has like the McDonald's, but with instead of the McDonald's logo, it's Calvary Chapel on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:29

Oh, how interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:32

I think that that's when I started calling it like the McDonald's and Christmas churches, because it it very much is like he went to Calvary Chapel Downey in Southern California, and this is basically his testimony of like how things just started to not seem right to him. And it's a great read for anybody who you know who wants extra evidence. But for when I was reading this, I was like, I didn't want to read this, but I knew I was like, I need to read these things. I'm I I can't remain ignorant. Like I know Jesus was this guy. I I I'll study the Jewish study from an academic perspective. I'll uh I'm gonna do everything I can. But when I read things like this, and like he says, there is a tendency among the age born-again Christian group to promise people. And like I I just think that California exploded with I don't want to think drug addicts, but people who were like, you know, hippies, they they they they were looking for something, right? We all we all like to escape. And so some of those people were filling, you know, that empty space in their heart with drugs, and when Cavali Chapel came along and like went to bed, too. That's the thing I think that's why Cavali Chapel forfeited so much because they went to those countries. They were going looking for people. And when they saw those people, the whether they were drug guys, they're homeless or just hanging out at the beach, like I know that that's how my pastor they got my pastor because he needs to be like a surfer in San Diego. And so I'm sure that one day they turn and they were like, Oh, you want like you know, do you want salvoce or or do you know where you're going when when you die? Like something like that. Yeah. Like, like I don't want to laugh at it, but you know, because you would say things like it's like I'm still a believer, you're a believer, right? Like I like like I know we have a creator, but I know that I don't need to be able to cover couple by relationship. That's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:52

A hundred percent. And like you said, nobody wants this to be true. Like this was your whole life. Like this had to have been so crushing and devastating beyond measure to like reconcile with. And that's why a lot of people look away from it because it's so devastating. You know, we all want places that we frequent and people that we have grown up with and communities that we've been a part of to be safe and to be things that we're proud of and like to be things that we can look on fondly. Nobody wants to wake up and realize that they devoted so much time and energy and emotion and time to something that was corrupt and something that wanted to exploit them and something that was coercing them and manipulating them and abusing them. It's devastating, you know, and so that's why you're so brave for doing what you're doing, because not a lot of people have the courage to. And it's not because they're bad people, it's because they're good people who are taken advantage of for so long that it's so painful, it's too painful for them to even consider that they're that they've become abuse victims. Because, like how we were saying, most people go to these places to get healing and to become stronger and to be supported, you know, and to realize that, like, oh my gosh, I was actually victimized in my time of need. That's a really hard thing for somebody to admit to themselves and then to, you know, proactively move away from because that's how abuse is, you know, it makes you keep coming back for more when it's done in these covert ways.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:22

Yeah, that's true. It's like once you finally have peace, you're like your body is used to the like being on high alert, like your antennas are constantly up. So when he finally does settle, you're like, wait, I feel like something's off.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:42

And if I could, I want there's a couple of parts of this article. I was just kind of skimming it, and it really kind of validates a lot of what you're saying. Um, it says, I don't even know how to say his last name, Draher. Dreher suggests that those attracted to such high control authoritan groups are trying to make sense of a world that doesn't make much sense, a world full of violence and broken families and broken communities. Once a member has left the church, he says the letdown can lead to serious psychological scarring. Quote, almost always there is a lack of self-confidence in making your own decisions again. Often it takes a lot of work to make those abilities strong again. So again, they take your agency, they take your ability to think, they're making your decisions, they're controlling you. And then one other sentence that really stood out was to insiders, it provides a feeling of unity within the group while distancing the members from the unwashed outside world. So it also like makes you, you know, emotionally, physically, mentally dependent because it's like what makes sense. They convince you that like this is the group, this is where you're at, you know, nothing else matters, no other books matter, no other people matter. Like this is your spot, this is your community, this is what you can learn. And it's almost it reminds me of stories that you hear of people coming out of jail, how they struggle to adjust to the outside world, which is so messed up because jail is like, who wants to go to jail? You know, but there's criminals that will get released and then commit a crime again, just go back because they enjoy that feeling of like, you know, the predictability and like knowing what's going to happen and like consistency and even maybe community if you know they feel like they can fit in there and they don't fit in the outside world. And so you see how this guy's like really validating what you're saying in a very compassionate way. And it's not bashing religion, it's saying that there's bad people and bad things happening in safe spaces that we need to, you know, we need to acknowledge and and hopefully eradicate with testimonies like yours and this brave, you know, gentleman that's also testifying in this article.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:46

Absolutely. And words are exactly how I felt as I'm like, okay, I know I'm not an idiot, but why do I question if what I'm doing is correct? You know how there's what is it, imposter syndrome, and then there's like where you're like isolating yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:06

Yeah, it's like I've I know I can do things, but I don't have it's like I know I can be confident, like I know who I am, but I have to second guess everything because I've never had an actual, I've never had like me personally me embrace and you said earlier, like they take your identity, they take your agency from your identity. So you can't say no, and then you also can't be who you are, you have to be who they mold you into being. It's very confusing to walk away from that. It's like exciting to like be able to do finally, but then it's like, oh crap, what do I do now? Like everything I've ever known was obeying them and being told what to do and having them make my decisions, and they were my community, like they isolated me from everybody else, you know, and that can be really destabilizing for people. I like that article. Maybe I'll if if you have it online, I'll link it. Um, I think that it does a good job just from the little bit that I skimmed of kind of um summarizing our conversation today in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:27

Yeah, I can I can look at that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:30

Okay, this one.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:32

I probably chuckle Miami B. So this I again was this um I wanted a specific date on like what side of the like when it was reaching that side of the country. So this is 93. So and and I think the other one we saw was 90.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:52

I think so too, right around there.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:55

That was in Florida. So basically it took California. So it took so in California over in like the 70s, and then it just kept spreading, spreading, spreading. And again, their their method is like, oh, we're like a we're just a little small Bible study, and it will get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Oh, yeah, so Ospin radio pass through the joint helping couple that I thought that that was interesting because I was like, okay, so I obviously want to know why he got Ospin. 100%. Outspit, right? And if he got outspit, why is Covid Couple now welcoming bringing her to others? Yeah, 2009.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:49

That one seven bringing church and hope to inmates.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:56

Oh yeah, and then this one was if Isaac was clapping back at his critics. And I believe we're still at the New Mexico Calvin Chapel. There's like a masking one out there. Yeah, like it looks more like a it's like a crime book. Yeah, or like a crime book or an art piece. That's what I think when I look at it. Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, this could be a great museum piece, but why is this on the cover of it, you know, one of one of the comedy chapel posts, like and and and that's how I know it was just, you know, it it couldn't be anything other than the some money operation, like, or at least at least it personally, you know, he until what I looked at, I believe he has the most books published. And that's probably why he's remained at the top of the Calvary Chapel charts, because he's I don't even know that he's writing any books, but he's clicking them.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:01

Gosh, I can't imagine how much money he has or had if he's still alive.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:05

Yeah. Text personnel or text of personnel's works up with like tornado women church. And I think that's where I think why I said this was because it was uh it just mentioned Calvert Chapel in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:19

So I think and it shows again sort of that what's the word I'm looking for?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:28

Almost like lack of compassion. Like there's a tornado that ruined the church, which probably means that it was it devastated the area that it was in. And they're like, Oh, we don't care if you guys are all, you know, you lost your home, come over here and work out. You know, it just seems like a little bit of like lack of compassion for maybe what that area was like going through. Like I get that, you know, maybe prayer and being with community is a good thing, but it's like it seems like they're trying to make a point for the reputation more than caring about the uh the people that go to the church.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:05

No, yeah, you're you're right. I didn't even think about that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:09

It's like something for an image. Like we're gonna make the news, you know, it's gonna make us look good instead of like, oh, maybe we should spend some of this money that everybody in our church gave us for all these books and help people like get their homes back together and like go buy them stuff and like help. Like interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:30

Oh, another sex of these one.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:32

Yep. And this one is I forget where let's see, does it say August and yes owned? I think that's like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:50

Oh Calvary Chapel.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:53

Oh, wait to mention it's mentioning Panther now. So I think that one might be in Florida. Interesting. Yeah, that's an example of me. Um I was part of a lot of different, I don't know, what do you call them? Ministries. I was part of a lot of different ministries. And one of the ministries that I did, uh I I think a lot of churches have this VBF. Um like it's like vacation Bible school. And at vacation Bible school, we put on like play every single night. So it's like 30 minutes every single night, um Monday through Friday, I think, and or sometimes Sunday through Thursday. And the kids come in every day, and like they're they're doing little activities, and then at the end of it, you put on a performance. And so I did that for like three years. And um, my my little cousin is there in the backing away. But these are just like little kids who are part of the church, and I know that I was probably like one of the little kids too. Like, you know, they give you a uh a certificate for going, and you you know, that that obviously doesn't mean you're best friends with Jesus, but like that's kind of like what they're pushing forward with this. Like after each performance, they they do like a like a roll call for Jesus. So they're like, if you want Jesus in your life and all that, you raise your hand. And I don't think that's necessarily bad, but what I know is from my cousin being there, he wasn't raising his hand, but he was like looking around and saw all the other kids standing and raising their hand. So he was like, Okay, I guess I'll do it. And that little example is I know that there are people like that everywhere because peer pressure's a thing, but when it's happening, like that probably happened to me as a child, like what what he did, where he's like, Oh, I guess everybody wants to do this, so I want to do this too. And I don't think that that would healthy at all, because you're supposed to make your right, you're supposed to make your relationship with God and yours and yours alone. And that type of activity is what's continuing. That's basically what I wanted to say. Like like that activity that keeps continuing. You look around and you're like, oh well, so and so long periods, so and so long periods, so we're so long period. And it like I don't want to badly about the people I know, but unfortunately, it's like I think youth could be raising what they put me in there, and as a result, now I have to feed my teeth, and I'm glad that I was able to entertain kids and do some of that. But I know like at one point they kicked me out of the children's ministry, and I had to start working at uh dispensary and I was doing the social media and things, and um, that's part of where they told me they're like, okay, we can't be part of the kids' ministries anymore, but we can still do the parent ministry. And that was part of the tug and pull where they were like, they didn't want me around pitch because of the cannabis. And at the same time, like they knew that I use cannabis for my epilepsy, but also the dispensary where I was working at, the full first year, we were only the risk and all. So, and not even just that, like my parents encouraged me to apply for that. So I thought, like, oh, I have my parents' collection working here, that's great, and I'm actually helping people. Like, I would like the go-to TV tool because of my epilepsy, and and it just that kind of led to a bit of like outcasted you. Yeah, yeah. Oh, definitely outcast. That's not the word I was looking for, but definitely, yeah. Um, it it it it led to a bit of an altercation only because that's when the church could see that I wasn't like bending over anymore. Like I was thinking for myself. Like I like they were starting to say things like, yeah, uh, they they were starting to say, like, um, we don't think what you're doing is leading others to God. You know, stuff like that. That's so broad, but at the same time, it's like they're basically pointing their finger at you and saying, Hey, you sinners. And like I just remember thinking, like, well, the Bible also says to not be gluttonous. So, like, what about all these overweight people? You know, like, like I just it it wasn't making sense for me. Like, I could tell, like, you're just picking in fusion. You don't like that I'm doing this, and you want me to do like, you know, little little obedient clear roads. That's what that's and that was like, I don't know, almost some years ago now, but I I started to feel that I would in it was like in 2020, like maybe right before the pandemic. I I I I really started to feel like holy keep trying to like box me in. I don't like it. So I was I was, I was trying to think for myself, but because I was thinking for myself, it was so like combative, if that makes sense. Like I like I had my my own two voices in my head, and one was trying to tell me to think for yourself, and the other one would say no, don't, because you've never you've never thought for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:33

Right, just like that guy said in that article, you know, it can cause like psychological distress for people when they leave, or in your case, you were still attending the church and part of the community, but you were also starting to figure out your own identity and explore things you cared about, and it went outside of the realm of what of the path they had set out for you. And so they ostracized you and made you feel bad and gaslit you, and then took away some of the privileges that they gave you as a punishment for it. Great examples here that you're giving of all of this.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:13

And this but this shows my parents in the top photo with the brief. There you go, thank you. Um yeah, so the top one is my parents when they were still Catholic. And then and in a way, actually, I don't know, I'll say this and you agree, like they look super happy. Yeah, when when when Catholicism is supposed to be this like boring strict thing, at least that's what I was always taught from Calvary. But if you scroll down, like as you continue to scroll down, they do look kind of happy right there. He's he's kind of smiling, and my my dad's you know, like playing with her foot or whatever. But then as we go down even further to me, now that's my daddication. And it seems like they got further from the child.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:12

Wow, that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:16

And and is that just me like looking too much into it, or or does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 1:57:22

No, absolutely. Ooh, I keep meaning to some up.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:30

No, you're absolutely right. You can see the the sequence, like it just seems like they kind of had their their soul taken from them at some point between all of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:45

It's completely different, even to them how you were saying, like standing up tall and like looking confident, and then the bottom, it's like their shoulders are hunched over, their heads are down, nobody's smiling.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:57

That's fascinating. What a great kind of sequence that you were able to like intuitively look at and see, read those expressions the way that that they are are there. You know, that could have easily just been kind of missed if you don't really know what you're looking at.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:13

But that's that's that's what I see when I see that. I see like the children getting separated from the parents, and exactly what you said, they're they're they're kind of defeated with in their demeanor.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:25

Right. And then how you were just saying with the child, like you can see the the separation super clearly between these three and the closeness, you know, and sort of the difference. Wow, that's really fascinating. That's like a great little case study right there. Mm-hmm. So I'll go to the this one.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:47

Yeah, that's the one. Oh, it looks like you were just zooming in on them. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:53

And so that's my grandmother getting baptized. Um, I briefly mentioned earlier, like when she got baptized, I don't even think she knew what was happening. I I think it's just because my my my parents seemed super successful to that side of the family. So they were like, okay, whatever, like we'll have whatever there's happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:14

And oh my gosh. It's like a public pool too, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:59:20

Yeah, no, it is. You're right. It's a public pool. We went we like, I guess we got permission from the local community college and had like, like, I know that I was baptized that day too, but they was, I don't know, there were like a hundred people, like, and it like when my grandfather, my dad's dad passed away, or right before he passed away, I was there and my dad like knelt down really quickly, and he was like, Do you accept he was proud of your Lord and Savior? And my grandpa was just kind of like, uh-huh. Like, yeah, you know, like really like almost out of it on his deathbed. And he and when he got up, like my excuse me, my dad's older brother and older sister eventually told the family, like, that my dad did some coward couple booted. And so I know that that might be like an extreme bit, but because my most of my family is still Catholic, like when my dad did that. Obviously, my dad's a plug with dad, like he's trying to do the best thing he at least knew he could do. But um, that created like a schism because then my parents became like the like the thought that they could be in a cult, that was like solidified when my dad did that. And my dad was like, I just need my dad to hear, or my dad was thinking he needed to hear his dad say, like, like Jesus Christ with his blood and bleeding and all that, but that it could all be done like like almost instantly. And I'm not saying that God can't forgive or sin. Obviously, God can do anything, but when like I'm I there's that's a war in my mind because I'm like, I understand my dad, older siblings, they were probably thinking like, what the heck is Frank feeling when he can strengthen my dad? And they were like, he never did this, like what the heck? We already had the priest come and read them his black boats or whatever. So then it was like my dad was like throwing away everything that they just did. But obviously to my dad, he vote saving my grandpa. And but regardless, you know, objectively, it was weird. It it was and and and I don't mean for it to be a laughing matter, but that I I I knew even then I was like, this is weird. Like I don't think this is what I mean who knows what normal is, but I I don't think this is what family dreams. I don't like I know death can cause break from family, but it was contributed to because of my dad's like it goes back to the UN mentality, like that's a cult out, right? Like you're not every chapel Christian, I'm probably chapel type. That's pretty much the way they see it. And like I try to explain to my parents, you realize like Mormons call themselves Christians, like though this witnesses call themselves Christian. Obviously, we don't consider them Christian. So can you understand how some people might not even consider you Christian? And they're like, Yeah, but those people are wrong. So it's like whatever angle I tried coming on it with my parents, like in a way, I thank God for all of this because I know the Bible better. Like I've had to, like, you know, I I had to read it in order to understand the things that would happen long around me. But um I I would never obviously want to on anybody because 30 years or 33 years old mom, but like as a 33-year-old, I'm like, was I reading too much into that? And is I not reading too much into it? Because even if I was masking on my optimism, I know that I was traumatized growing up in that church, wondering, like, like we're all aware of peer pressure, right? Like, I think that's just the social human thing. But when you're going to church, your first thought shouldn't be, I'm gonna be good. And that at least was always my first thought.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:40

A hundred percent. And even looking at this photo here, you know, your your grandmother, it it looks to me like she probably wasn't doing very well health-wise, you know, and it even though it's a different situation than you and what you went through doing labor, because you could still walk and function and obviously didn't be carried, um, it still goes to it's it's sort of that we want to look, we want our reputation as a church and the things that we do and to promote things. Like they there could have been a news heading of like, you know, woman that couldn't walk baptized, even though your grand was probably like, why are you guys doing this to me? Like, I don't want this, but the way that it, it's like the perception of like, we're the best, you know, we overcome everything, like we're staying true to our church's guidelines and to what they want. And so it like contributes to the church's um reputation and perception while potentially putting the stress and harm on the people involved with whatever the task is, whether it's this baptism, which looks extremely distressing and uncomfortable for your grandma, or your experience where you're you have conditions that that need uh that can be debilitating and you need special care in certain ways, and they had to do stuff that you shouldn't have been doing that you didn't expect to do, and that you probably didn't want to do, honestly, you know, and so it just it's fascinating how cults function that way to where if say your parents had never gone to this church or anybody in this photo, and it was just randomly suggested to them about your grandma, like, hey, let's get her out of bed, even though she can't walk, let's put her in this wheelchair, let's go take her to a public pool and baptize her. They'd probably be like, That's the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard. Like, let the woman rest, you know. But because it's like this virtuous church, and they have these special guidelines, and and you guys are warriors of God and like overcome everything and follow and obey and abide, you know, it it shows like the how you said there's not boundaries, you know, the boundaries are very easily crossed and made to look virtuous in the process while potentially infl inflicting harm and stress on people.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:00

You hit the nail on the head with the boundaries. It's like I I never had boundaries growing up, like never, never, and it is influenced and upheld joining Calvary's couple. It's it's like I now have to reevaluate my entire life. And I'm grateful that I've learned what I've learned. I've had an opportunity to do a lot, even with being limited by Calvary, but like I don't want to say I wouldn't have been right away, because obviously it'd be great to not have grown up in a cult, but I I know that this is for a reason. Like that's that's what I have to hold on to. And I know that God isn't going to judge me for what I did or even didn't do in Calgary, right? He's like, I know that God would be like, Well, Caleb, I let you be put somewhere and you figured your way out. That's what I think God would tell me.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:17

And you can see how you always resisted it through your testimony. You know, this wasn't something that ever made sense to you, even though you went along with it because that's what you were groomed to do. That's what was normal. But you've questioned it ever since you were a child, you know, and God sees that too. He sees the moments of resistance to things that are abusive and notices that. And I think it's it's amazing that this can travel through so many different family lines and nobody sees it until one day a Caleb comes along and nothing about it like makes sense, even though you're forced to participate in it and it's something that you you spend a lot of your life doing. It still isn't something that fully aligns with you. And like it's amazing that you and other survivors have that within them, even though it wasn't something that you were taught. And even though you didn't have strong examples of that around you of people asking questions and using discernment and having boundaries. Yet for some reason, you and others, there's these rare gems that are in these. And I I love all the people, like I my heart breaks for all these people. I'm not saying that I'm not putting people on a hierarchy or pedestal, like these are victims, you know, but it's just it's amazing to me that some rare people can see through it even though they have no idea what they're looking at. They don't even have words to express why something doesn't feel good or why it seems wrong, or why maybe I don't want to do this, or should we be doing this? You know, the the the curiosity and the quote unquote troublemakers and the ones that kind of disobey, you know, and I think that that's just amazing that that you had that discernment, even though you didn't have the vocabulary for it or know that that this was even abuse. You somehow always carried that with you and never, you were never fully able to be controlled, or you never fully obeyed. You always had the curiosity about knowing who you are versus being put into a mold of what they wanted you to be. And I I think you have an amazing purpose and mission ahead of you. And I'm so grateful to get it kicked off here on this podcast episode. And I'm really excited to see what comes about it in your journey and how many people that you impact and influence and give a voice to, whether in Calgary or other situations similar. Because it's a big, it's a big problem. A lot more people are involved in these these cult systems than anybody wants to admit. And there's probably even people listening that are working somewhere or involved with some type of club or you know, fraternity type thing that are thinking about it themselves, like, could I be? You know, and that's what we should all be asking ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:54

Absolutely. Um one thing that I don't know if many people are aware of this, but like so Calvary Chapel is named Calvary after Calvary, which um is the place where Jesus was crucified. So like Golgotha. I I think that's what I think that's what it was called in Greek. Gogoth or Golgotha. So Calvary is named after that. So if you do the etymology of it, really what it is is gold chapel. So if you if you want to look into the esoteric or esoteric, yeah, esotericism. Wait, wait, esoteric, yeah, yeah. Sorry, the if you look into the esoteric meanings of these things, like the dove that they use doves already have an esoteric symbolism, like you know, dating back to like Babylon. But the the skull thing, that's how that's also like connecting those dots. I'm like, they're calling themselves the church of the skull. If you if you follow the etymology correctly, that's what it means. Well, Gotha, it was it was a skull, like the mountain looked like a skull, I think. And so again, whether these people understand it or not, like the Bible talks about how they're like principalities, right? Like a nation can develop a principality, and I believe that that's what Hobby Chapel has done. They are developing, I mean, there's there's always been something of like you know, pirates or like soul cults and things like that, but or skull and bones, like that was up in state. And um, like I affiliated with that, and I I know the only reason I got recruited into a fraternity was because we were like, hey, that guy might be something, but it wasn't because I was like a huge bro or anything, like that's not me. But all those things, like like my fraternity, it's I And so they have something called a chipette, and it's basically like an X in a circle with the lines from the five. But basically, all those things are symbols. And I mean, you're aware of symbols from doing these interviews. And not only that, like I studied at advertising public relations, like specializing in the PR, but understanding that advertising as a whole is psychological and they use these symbols to control people. Like I think it was normally T. Hall that said the world is run by signs and symbols. And I don't think people understand whether they're going to Calgary or McDonald's or somewhere else. I don't think people are understanding the effect that these signs and symbols have on us. Especially if you're constantly seeing it and constantly being bombarded, whether it's with like a cross on the Bible or whatever it is, you're constantly being bombarded with these signs. And I understand also from studying media that we everything that we see that we're conscious of, our subconscious is processing like everything else, right? So we like you can't actually claim what your subconscious knows unless you're doing like developmental work and you're actually looking into like what triggers you and you're realizing like okay, they basically all the uncomfortable stuff that people don't want to do, right? Like, like until you actually do that uncomfortable work, you are susceptible. Like every person on earth is susceptible to being controlled by these symbols. And I I that's why I say, like, who knows if Calvary Couple actually started on the B teams? That's just a story. But all great I mean, all great titans or even corporations, they all have like a filled with story, right? It's like, and to me, that's that's what I think when I think of Calvary Tupple. Now I don't, I mean obviously the the watch image is is gone for me because of what I've experienced, but I have to like stop myself every single day from like thinking, oh, this is also bad about Calvary because I don't want I, you know, I don't want to live my life always focused on the negative and always focused on the negative of Calvary Touffle, right? Like I'm only gonna let myself do this for I don't know, maybe like five more years, and then I'm like a picker go start putting it, you know, start filing it away. But the subconscious symbols, that's why I know Calvary Touple has like their method figured out. So when they do their workshops, they have their TV screens, they say they only focused on one or two virtuals or like a couple virtuals, but all that's doing is like you look at that one verse and then you hear them talk about it for like 30 minutes, and then you hear them like bring up a second or third verse, and then you hear them talk about that for 30 minutes, and the whole time they're founding things on TV screen, sort of distracting them, and um they it seems very much so like it's all just copy and paste, like it's all it seems formulaic, that's what I'm looking for. It it seems formulaic and they have their formulas down.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:29

And that's what mind control is, you know, being able to systematically in a very organized way keep things repeated, keep control, keep the uh control of information, keep grooming, you know, everything that that you're explaining, you don't need machines and technology to mind control somebody. Of course, on some levels there is that degree of it, but you see how, like you said, you can control somebody by having them be loyal to a symbol and identifying with it, having it be something that they carry with them the rest of their lives. And that, you know, at a place like Penn State, they encourage their children to now go partake in that because that symbol means so much to them and what that experience was. You know, and so you see how symbols are deeply embedded in occultic activity and cult activity and how they they really go together. They use so many of our senses and emotions and physical, they use every type of way that they can to impact us, to get us attached to that thing. And so we're involved with it on every single level, from our soul to our heart to emotionally to mentally, physically. You know, they they look at all those different ways of getting us to be attached to something, you know, and and it's crazy to think of the power of like a symbol or a sign or a word or a slogan, you know, like the power that those things have over us, even just in everyday life, listening to a commercial for a soda, you know, and then all of a sudden you want to go to the store and get one, or you're just shopping, you're like, oh, I should get this. And it's like, wait, why did I want this? Like I wasn't even craving it. Well, the commercial told you to get it, you know? And sodas is very, very interesting how that proliferates also in these cult systems that you're talking about. And it's awesome that somebody like you is able to now reflect and see that because it's amazing how unconscious that is for so many people who are still in these systems. You know, they have no idea that their obedience is to, you know, things that aren't even tangible a lot of times. So I'll put these back up. Maybe we'll go through a couple, oh, that one's the same one. Okay, let's look at this.

SPEAKER_03 2:17:52

Okay, yeah, that was just like the back of the three photos with the dates.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:56

Oh, okay. Shows the years 1988, 2012 and 1993. Right?

unknown 2:18:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:10

Oh wait, I was looking at the 2012. This this was a different date. I think that's somebody's birthday, maybe 1991 or two. Is that what that was?

SPEAKER_03 2:18:20

Um yeah, December 91 or Jan 92.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:23

Okay, yeah, I was looking at the bottom part. She turned 21 on that date. So this is 1988 to 1991 or 92, and then 1993. And so that's even like such a short span of time, too, for those photos that we showed earlier. And to think about like the demeanor of like how much was taken potentially from them during that time.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:49

Just from the expressions. They're so they're so depleted by the time I'm photographed with them. Oh, this is so the the mission strip to Infinada, and um, I put a marking over one of the person's face just because they were technically underage. But the fact that they even had an underage person there too, it's like we were all going, and what I was told was there's a new campus in Sonata, and we're gonna help them source. And then we get there, and they're having us like like I think if you go to the next photo, there's they're telling me with like a wheelbarrow. Yeah, that's like that's like and and we were mixing like the actual like cement, sludge, like we were doing everything that construction workers do. And I was just, I mean, you can see I'm I'm pretty thin. I'm not like I'm I'm I'm I'm I I don't want to say I shouldn't have been there. Thank you for saying that earlier. But um, like I'm glad I was there to like and look back on this. But I went there thinking I need to get closer to God. I remember that was on my mind. I went there thinking I need to get closer to God. This is gonna help me get closer to God. And at one point I like shared, um, it might be in the photo after I think I I've heard it with different one. I I think I'm on stage. Yeah, so like they asked me to share my testimony, and um, so I talked about some stuff in college that I had done that that was wrong, but otherwise we were like speaking to like Mexican fallen. So it's not that my words weren't useless, but it's like, so you're bringing me here to Mexico so I can do a bunch of free labor, and then you want me to talk to Mexican fallen and try to relate with them. Like that's just a lot. And I when I look back on it, I want to say that it's just ridiculous. It's like they probably didn't take me seriously. They probably are looking at me like, these are world American generally. Like, he probably doesn't know, like, he doesn't know the the street life like we do. And I know that I'm not the only person who's thinking that and who has done that as part of Calvary Couple because like I knew somebody else who went to New York City and you know did a ministry there, and they had told me they were like, What like how can I actually relate to these people that are living with projects? Like, I can't actually relate to them. And the issue isn't you know, us relating or not. That the issue that I just want to point out is like we shouldn't have even been there. Like, we we're not we're not the right people to be there. Like, thank god I was there if I can look fast on it and you know comment on how ridiculous this is, but I should not have been in that position, whether it was because of my health, like you said, or because of like the technical thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:16

It's not a construction worker, like there should have been a construction team there, and you guys should have been there as support to help guide the mission that you came out there for, which was to follow God and to help, you know, build this new like sanctuary that that they were promoting you guys for and like making you feel special about. And like I want to comment too, just going back on this photo, it's it eerily reminds me so much of the photos that I see of trafficking victims with their parents. And it's a way of gaslighting where they take photos like this, and then later on they're like, Well, you look happy. Like, what do you mean that you were being trafficked or abused by your parent? Like you were smiling whenever I would see you with them. And it's like, yeah, because that's how abuse works. Like they want it to feel like you're special and that you're good for doing it, you know. And and even when I hear testimony about satanic ritual abuse survivors, they're told so many times that they're chosen for this ritual, this child sacrifice, whatever it is, that children are being groomed to think that they're special for participating in crime. Abuse can look very different from what we think. You know, you never look at this and think that these are people being used for jobs that they have no experience in that they shouldn't be doing, that some of these people might have health issues and should not be at all participating in something like this. Like you guys all look like you feel special for being there, and that the words that they told you of why you were there meant a lot to you. That's why all of you were out there because of those things. And in return, the church is exploiting you and you don't even realize it because it feels so good to be out there because what they told you.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:58

Yeah. And the the guy on the end, oh here, we've actually uh so I'm right there in in the green on one side, and the guy on the opposite end in the marine cert, he ended up splitting from this Calvary Chapel. Like we got in a fight with the pastor over, I don't know, whatever, but he ended up deciding I'm gonna go start my own search. And so that's what's happened with a lot of I don't know, Calvary Chapel everywhere, but I know that at least here, like he wasn't the first youth pastor to do that. There was another one who we still don't know why they just stopped getting along and he was like, okay, I'm gonna go start my own search. And if like one person does that, okay. But like I said before on this podcast, like if you notice so many things happening over and over and over and over again, something's wrong. And that's what I realized after this guy left. I was like, wait, this guy I kind of grew up with, like he was also a cafet child. I don't know if you know what that is, where it's like um like a foster child. So I know that he would probably trade on because you know, when if you're a foster child, you obviously you you want family, you you you want that acknowledgement, you want that love. And he did something wrong or something the Patrick, the one who's still there, didn't like. And so he said, Well, I'm gonna go start my own. And that has happened multiple times now, and each time it's made me think after, you know, I'm finally thinking for myself. I'm like, wait, why did they leave? Like, even this guy, even though I didn't think everything he was perfect, right? Like any of none of us are perfect, but um, he invited me one time to speak for the youth. Um, we did like an Instagram live, and I talked about I was still working at the dispensary and I and I made it all very educational. I I talked about like terpenes or the caryophylene and how that's like in oregano, but it's also some cannabis. And so I was I was doing this very professionally, very educated. And um, he asked me to be a part of that, and I was surprised. I was like, but wait, I thought I'm not allowed to be part of any of the like youth ministry or any of the children's ministries anymore. And he was like, Well, I got permission from Pastor Food to do this, and so I was like, okay. Um, so even then, I think that they didn't get along, but they just put on like a happy face for everybody, right? Because that's that's what you do, right? You you do the what do you want to call it, your little you know, smile, pretend like everything's perfect. And I I I look at this and kind of like what you said, yeah, the smiles. Like, I know that like the two guys in the back, they were absolutely happy to be there. And like I said something about the Bible, and the one of the guys like immediately snapped and started like like coding the scripture verbatim. So I like I'm not trying to say that like they're a better Christian or I'm a better Christian. Like, I know that they I think that they were genuinely happy to be there because they were the type that is like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lay down it all, I'm gonna give it my all. Whereas, like me, like I had just come back from New York City, like I had done some bad things, but also I was like taking note of everything. Like, like like we said most times now, like I've I was always a curious kid and I always took note of things, even if I looked the other way or I pretended like I wasn't paying attention, I was always taking notes. And I know that on that trip, it was they were there there were even kids younger than us. This was like the older group. There were there was there there was at least a dozen younger kids. So that's like they're not even in the photo, they just they kind of separated us. They had like the young, young kids and then the older kids. So very and I guess they were like older kids, you're gonna build, you know, you're gonna build a an actual structure, you're gonna construct. And for the younger kids, I think they were having them cooling or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:21

Wow. It's fascinating. And then hearing about the different personalities and how you on one side over here, you know, it it didn't align with you. And the people in back that you're talking about. I don't mean that this offensively to them, actually say it with a lot of compassion. The people that are genuinely happy to be there are like almost the most sad because they're like the perfect people to prey on for a cult, you know, the ones that will be exploited with a smile on their face and not ever question it. And they're probably still doing it to this day, you know, not even asking a question and being taken advantage of and not realizing that the mission that they're so proud of and the the company and the organization and the church and the people that they're so proud to be a part of, like could care less about them. You know, they're just a commodity, they're a human commodity to do tasks and to spend money and to, you know, it just really sad. It makes me really sad that that that's the case a lot of times. And like you're the rare one that asks the questions and and you know, looks at things with a critical eye, you know, and and you should be really proud of that. I think that's amazing that you've always had that discernment, even though it's had to have been so hard to get away from, you know, even to the point of going on stage and sharing about your experience, even though part of you probably didn't feel good about it, you know, about some of the things you had to talk about, you still did it. And I think that's it's amazing how you were able to balance that. Um, and then eventually when when it was the right time, defect from it fully and get away and you know, have this time that you can spend learning about your experience and you know, thing I know 33 probably seems like, oh my gosh, I can't believe it was been all this time, but think about all the people that you know were born into it and and are gonna die, never experiencing a day in their life of like getting away from this. They're just gonna like go through it and like not ever question it in their whole life. Like that's really sad. I'm so happy that you have so much of your life ahead of you that you can make an impact and fig, you know, figure out more of who you are and explore that and like get to go use your gifts and the things you're passionate about for things you want to instead of things that the cult wanted you too. Really grateful for that for you. And again, here I'm just I'm scrolling photos, all smiles once again.

SPEAKER_00 2:30:42

Everybody's happy. Another one.

SPEAKER_01 2:30:47

Oh my gosh, that had to have weighed a lot. I mean, I don't maybe it was just like something light, like yeah, those were heavy, yeah. But that doesn't look, you know, this guy doesn't look like he's, you know, a construction worker.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:02

No, he's not. You're right. He was just there. Oh, and this is this was um, I think it's unlisted. Yeah. Um, but I just took a screenshot of it um for the youth group. That's what PC uh Calvin Couple um oh recycled youth, I think that's what they called themselves. And um that was just a screenshot, and I edited a video and like helped record something for them. So I I was very involved for a bit, and I think that they that's why like I know cults groom, like everybody is groomed to some degree in a cult. And I think that that's what they were doing for me, they were trying to little by little, they were bringing me, like they they were giving me more and more responsibility, right? But I think that they knew that there was something off about me, whether it was my autism or just the fact that I was constantly questioning things, or if they wanted me to respond culturally and I just didn't, they they I'm sure that they saw me as some type of commodity they could benefit from.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:16

So happy you have all this footage still.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:19

Oh yeah, and with it. So that's like um again a screenshot, but um, because I think we made it and then just sent it to people or or played it like at the first a couple times. But um, yeah, that's like a whole slideshow. I'm not, I don't want to put everybody on blast, but just you know, enough to show people that I'm not lying, that I'm a person's making all this up.

SPEAKER_05 2:32:40

100%.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:43

Oh, and then a pastor appreciation, that's the pastor's life. So it was like, yeah, I don't know, like a 30-minute video that I went around and reported people for pastor appreciation day. Even when I was doing it, I was like, this seems weird. Like it seems like like they want me to honor him rather than just like you know, pay respect for that. Oh man, that different photo. That's that's my dad um for part of the vacation by before he was one of volunteers. And he still volunteered this guy near what what he was he was the principal for the school as well. So he had a lot of responsibility there. And I think that they were trying to bring me and my family on. They brought my family in as a whole since they were they have a Bible study for. But um, I think that they were really, really trying to, because my pastor has read multiple times you want with me until he looked at you or 45, maybe, and they don't know who's gonna replace them because a lot of the other pastors you got in a fight with, or um, they got burnt out, or um they left. To go open another one like in Infonata or um you know something else happened to them he like kept holding on to it because he's getting like so old now that I don't know who they'll replace him with, and not that that's my concern, but like he kind of did this to himself. He was so bent on getting 50 years of the pastor that he has like from my understanding, the church just keeps getting smaller and smaller. Like, I'm like, like, I think a lot of people who were watching my story when were listening to me speak out, though I know a lot of them thought that I was crazy. I'm pretty sure that some of them that are in there are the same ones that like saw me at the dispensary or the same ones that would message me privately. They're like, they're like Caleb was right. Like Caleb was seeing what I was seeing. And I I put up about it, but Caleb didn't. And so I like I have this photo again as evidence, but to show like I did have a good time, like that was a good moment with my dad. That was cool. But does it make any of it right? No. Right. Oh, and then so that's like a photo uh he got on working at Abercambi. And I figured I would put that just because uh, I mean, that was a good friend of mine. But since we talked about like the cult aspect, like I think that America is like full of a lot of cults, but um like brands are cult even when people don't realize it. Like, do you understand what they're representing? Like, you understand what they're wearing, and this doesn't need to go throw out on your clothes, but it's with if you are walking around unaware of what they're representing, you're being you're you're disrespecting yourself. And I think that that can be done with a cross around your neck, like or with um you know, wearing a brand and not even understanding. But what I can say from the brand point of view, at least, is like like I would have people be like, oh, I always wanted to work at Abercrombie, or oh, I loved Abercrombie. And I told them I was like, your words don't disappear, especially if you don't have zombies. Like I started comparing myself to all the guys with muzzles. Like you don't just all of a sudden it disappeared. I think that that's what cult puts people into the whether it's already like, oh, you know, it's probably changed a great, or if it's something like this, like I know Abu Pombi isn't what it used to be. It's kind of like gone more um not like Forever 21 status, but you know, it's like it's a bit more um washed over. And but at this time, it was still like they can't call their workers models anymore, but they used to. They were like, like they were the stories going viral that like a girl didn't want to take off her hijab, so they put her in the back to kind of hide her because she wasn't the avatar look. And so whether they're in a church, like a fraternity, even how I was, or this, like people need to understand discernment if they don't have it, they need to get it, but they need to understand discernment and they need to be able to discern between these things because it's whether you want to call it a cult or a distraction from God, that to me it's the same thing. Like the cult is distracting you from the actual relationship with God. You're so focused on either the cult of the church and you're standing in it, or how good you look in the brand's clothes. You know what I mean? Like it's it it it all becomes a distraction. And I know for sure that I was worshiping Abercrombie at that point. I was worshiping, you know what I mean? Like what what what and and and that's something I had to take a step back and realize like, wait, what are you actually putting your energy towards? Like this Abercrombie is not gonna make you a better person. Like, you know, that's not gonna get me in the head. And so what are you looking at it for other than just a job? Because this is what it just needs to be right now. And like I'm don't feel glorified on that. And it took me needing just to be humbled, right? So have a slice of humble pie. Um, but for anybody else who thinks that they either might be on a pole, whether it's work, like some of the most toxic workplaces. You can anybody can Google a list and it says like there's a lot of tone over turnover. Um, it's like a family structure, you know, they promote that. Um and I used to think like, oh, that's just the name of the game for the news industry. You know, we always have a rotating door. And that might be the name of the game for the news industry, but that doesn't make it alpha. You know? Like it's it's just because this is how the industry works doesn't mean it's it's okay, right? Like it's it not only are you in a room full of a bunch of gossipers, because that's what I've kind of the dupe, the newsing will do too. I'm like, it's a bunch of gossipers calling themselves reporters, trying to get people to worry about things that they don't really worry about. And that's how they make the money. You know what? I might need to take a, you know, not quit their job, but like take a step back. Take a step back, listen more at work, because like it's it it sounds lame to say, but it's the same things, right? It's that same formula. It's uh the us or the then group, it's the not questioning authority, it's right, like if if you look at all these, it's the same exact thing. And I had to really reflect and realize like, wait, we've just been going from cult to cult to cult for cult. And it was because we just wanted to feel belong, right? Because that's what any of us want. We all want to feel like you belong, and we have a purpose. And unfortunately, that belonging gets taken at man as well. Absolutely. Oh yeah. It's Calvi Peple held that's like having sort of Cal Beathead. So even there they call him Calvi Chapel head. That's why we always knew him as like the Pope of Calvin Chapel. Like he could be no longer.

SPEAKER_00 2:40:58

I think that's the last one here.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:00

Man, what a amazing slide show that you put together for today. That's so much information, and it's really cool to be able to tie it to your own experiences and to see you at the time that you were in that and you know, your family and the people that you cared about, you know, and just how how different a cult looks on the outside than what we think it should be. Thank you for your courage to break away. We I know we didn't even get into your lawsuit, we didn't get through all of your testimony, but I know we've we've also been on here for a while. And I think everything that we have left can make for a really great part two or even part three, you know, if you want to come on a few times. But I just thank you with all my heart. The information that you gave today is priceless, and I know it's gonna touch others and help people really observe, you know, their own environment and surroundings in life. And that's exactly what we need to do right now. It's more important than ever with all this other control from you know, all these different ways, uh, data centers and you know, the control's just gonna get worse. And so we have to take back our free will now and realize where it's being siphoned. And I'm I'm just so appreciative and proud of you. And I hope you're proud of yourself. And I know, like I said, little Caleb's just beaming at you. He's so proud of the man that you became and that you're gonna continue to become. And uh I just thank you with all my heart for everything that you've shared today.

SPEAKER_03 2:42:24

Thank you, Emma. Thank you for providing uh a safe day. There aren't that many left in this world, but thank you for providing one, not just for me, but for you everyone. I I feel like even your audience feels a little safer. I know, I know I feel safer when I listen to your podcast because I'm like, oh wow, I didn't think of that, or I haven't heard of that.

SPEAKER_01 2:42:45

And before we go, do you have just a short word of advice for anybody on the brink of, oh my gosh, I'm relating to this. I'm gonna call it. I want to leave. Do you have any just short words of advice for that person struggling or or being where you are were uh a year ago or less when you were thinking about leaving?

SPEAKER_03 2:43:06

Keep your receipt, right? We got we need our recreating that way. We know we're not crazy either. Like keep your efees and this probably sounds so easy, but trust God and have faith because sometimes that's always the new.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:26

Absolutely. And where can people connect with you on social media?

SPEAKER_03 2:43:32

Um TikTok is probably what I'm most active on. Um what's my username right here? Caleb John Fernandez, that's my full name. Uh in uh YouTube, I I mean I sometimes post on there and and because of everything that I've gone through, I'm like, what does Caleb actually want to say? Right? Like what is what instead of telling that person story or promoting this for that, like I'm finally at that point where I'm like, wait, what do I actually want to do? So I want to start a like, like I have videos on my YouTube channel, but I wouldn't say I have like a channel like V. Like you're like you're legit. Like I'm I'm getting closer to that point, but I'm I've been trusting God to make it super clear for me of what trajectory I can go on for for this because I ignored TikTok for a bit only because when I was working for the news, they hadn't focused on Facebook and Instagram too much more. But um, I kind of because of my um breaking away from the church on Instagram, I ended up just deactivating it because I I I shared I had people kind of like creeping on my profile. They were also looking at my stories and um people who I didn't even know, so I blocked a lot of people. I I also like reverse engineered it because I I like I would put someone who like of a footage I own, like I put them in a video that I posted because then I wanted to see like is it's gonna get their reaction or of course it did. So I basically was like playing on Instagram. I I I I wasn't using it the way people use it. Like, like like for the last year, I basically was like I was I was doing a cultural experiment. That's pretty much what I was doing. And so I deactivated that. And um, otherwise though, like like I'm not I don't have a put a book to put if people want to support me on TikTok or uh YouTube, I appreciate it. But otherwise, thank you, for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:45:40

You're so welcome. I'm so honored to have you here, and I can't wait to do part two and learn more about you and dig into some of these topics. You know, I this is like something I'm so passionate about because I just see how it's how it's so pervasive in society and how we're all victims without even knowing it for control and people that have bad intentions for us, um, and that we'll tie the in keep's clothing all the time in front of us and we don't we don't know what we're looking at. So what we'll do is we'll do a part two at least. Maybe we'll have Caleb on as a returning guest and we can dig more into these topics. But you guys leave your comments below if you guys have questions for Caleb. Um, that way we can answer them on the next episode. And please leave him some love and go support him on social media. It's really awesome and free. It's a great way to support survivors, just simply going on and interacting with their posts and reaching out. And especially if you're a survivor, if you're a cult survivor, um whether you're out speaking about it publicly or not. Um, I'd love if you guys went and supported Caleb and or reached out to him, especially if you're also a victim or a survivor of uh Calvary and want to have somebody to corroborate your story with, it would be amazing if you guys could go reach out to Caleb and uh and and share with him. And then also just you know build a network. I think survivors are better when they're together and you know, abusers want all of you guys to be isolated and separated just like you were whenever you're in the cult. So it's really powerful and we can get survivors together. So if anybody on the other side of the screen is a survivor and victim, again, please reach out to Caleb and and check out his social media, DM him, and uh you know, build it, build a survivor network. You guys are stronger together. And I'll have his links below in the show notes. Please go connect. And um, you guys, we couldn't do this without you. So with that being said, thank you guys so much for listening. God bless you all, and we will see you next time.