S6E71 | Cheryl Rainfield - Healing From Cult Torture With Cult Created & Self Created Personalities

Today I’m so honored to have back on the show once again: Non-binary, queer and polyfragmented cult torture, mind control, and incest survivor, overcomer and whistleblower living with Dissociative Identity Disorder, award winning published - and passionate - writer and author - writing the books they needed as a struggling teen and couldn’t find, content creator, artist and visionary, entrepreneur, educator, and the brightest and most colorful light in this dark world: Cheryl Rainfield.

A little bit about Cheryl if you missed their last episode or need a recap, as well as what you can expect to hear about in today’s episode:

Born in Toronto and raised in what appeared to be an ordinary middle-class family, Cheryl endured horrors few can fathom: intergenerational organized cult torture involving ritual abuse, mind control, trafficking, incest, and calculated programming designed to shatter body, mind, and soul. From birth—likely even in utero—the cults (interconnected KKK, Nazi, satanic, and Christian factions stretching back generations) subjected them to extreme torture, sexual violence, and psychological warfare in everyday places like church basements, forests, warehouses, and private homes. Yet even as a child, Cheryl found cracks in the darkness. Writing and art became their first lifelines, silent workarounds that allowed truth to slip past threats and programming. In their early teens, parts of their system began sharing memories, starting with incest.

A school story written by one part reached a believing teacher, prompting police and child protective services involvement—a fragile first step toward light. But safety was not immediate. Cult-involved parents deployed a sabotaging therapist, and torture intensified. But Cheryl’s system refused silence. At 15, they chose their own therapist—an extraordinary cult torture survivor with DID—who instantly recognized the switching and offered profound validation.

Cheryl lives with polyfragmented DID: thousands of fragments forming complex hubs, subgroups, and inner worlds, some self-created for protection, others deliberately crafted by the cult. Escape was not one dramatic moment but a marathon of courage—layer by layer, memory by memory, through inner cooperation, unraveling programming, and building co-consciousness. It took most of their life, but they reached safety, proving freedom is possible no matter how long the road.

Through it all, writing and art served as a sanctuary and superpower. Cheryl began pouring pain onto pages as soon as they could hold a pencil. In their late 20s and early 30s, they became the author they needed as a struggling teen—the one they couldn’t find. Their award-winning books, including Scars (with Cheryl’s own scarred arm on the cover), Stained, Hunted, and Visions, draw deeply from trauma and healing while delivering powerful literary fiction. Beyond the page, Cheryl’s impact radiates through social media, articles, raw videos, podcasts, and art that illuminates cult torture, polyfragmented DID, mind control, and the path to wholeness.

On Cheryl’s last episode we did together, we explored their testimony in depth - I would highly encourage you to watch that episode before or after this one to be truly inspired by what Cheryl has lived through and overcome. On today’s episode, we will be diving deeper into topics pertaining to Dissociative Identities - self and cult created, Dissociative Identity Disorder, cult abuse and torture, recovery, healing, creativity through art - and so much more.

Cheryl is not only a survivor—they are a miracle in motion, a revolution of hope, and the brightest and most colorful light this world has ever seen. Their story is far from over. And because they chose to rise, countless others now know they can too. The future is brighter because Cheryl is here—and together, with hearts open and voices united, we are lighting up the world.

Some Signs and Symptoms of Cult Torture and How To Help:
-https://www.cherylrainfield.com/some-signs-and-symptoms-of-cult-torture-and-how-to-help/
Articles on cult torture and programming:
-https://www.cherylrainfield.com/articles-cult-abuse/
Resources on cult torture and DID 
-https://www.cherylrainfield.com/links-healing/

Books on cult torture/RAMCOA:
-Becoming Yourself by Alison Miller
-Healing The Unimaginable by Alison Miller
-Demystifying Mind Control & Ritual Abuse 
-Safe Passage to Healing by Chrystine Oksana. It’s out of print but you can still buy copies.

Websites on cult torture: 
-Survivorship.org
-ra-info.org 
-ritualabuse.us
-endritualabuse.org
-https://grassroots-ra-mc-collective.org/

CONNECT WITH CHERYL:
TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@cherylrainfield
IG: https://www.instagram.com/cherylrainfield
FB: https://www.facebook.com/cheryl.rainfield/
YT: https://www.youtube.com/@Cheryl.Rainfield                                             Substack: https://substack.com/@cherylrainfield

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What's up, you guys? Welcome to The Imagination. I'm your host, Emma, and today I'm so honored to have back on the show once again non-binary, queer, and polyfragmented cult torture, mind control, and incest survivor, overcomer and whistleblower living with dissociative identity disorder, award-winning published and passionate writer and author, writing the books they needed as a struggling teen and couldn't find, content creator, artist and visionary, entrepreneur, educator, and the brightest and most colorful light in this dark world, Cheryl Rainfield. A little bit about Cheryl, if you missed their last episode or need a recap, as well as what you can expect to hear about in today's episode. Born in Toronto and raised in what appeared to be an ordinary middle class family, Cheryl endured horrors you can fathom, intergenerational organized cult torture involving ritual abuse, mind control, trafficking, incest, and calculated programming designed to shatter body, mind, and soul. From birth, likely even in utero, the cults subjected them to extreme torture, sexual violence, and psychological warfare in everyday places like church basements, forests, warehouses, and even private homes. Yet even as a child, Cheryl found cracks in the darkness. Writing and art became their first lifelines, silent workarounds that allowed truth to slip past threats and programming. In their early teens, parts of their system began sharing memories, starting with in theft. A school story, written by one part, reached a believing teacher, prompting police and child protective services involvement, a fragile step toward the light. But safety was not immediate. Cult-involved parents deployed a sabotaging therapist, and the torture intensified. But Cheryl's system refused silence. At 15, they chose their own therapist, an extraordinary cult torture survivor with DID, who instantly recognized the switching and offered profound validation. Cheryl lives with polyfragmented dissociative identity disorder, thousands of fragments forming complex hubs, subgroups, and inner worlds, some self-created for protection, others deliberately crafted by the cult. Escape was not one dramatic moment, but a marathon of courage, layer by layer, memory by memory, through inner cooperation, unraveling programming, and building co-consciousness. It took most of their life, but they reached safety, proving freedom is possible no matter how long the road. Through it all, writing and art served as a sanctuary and a superpower. Cheryl began pouring pain onto pages as soon as they could hold a pencil. In their late 20s and early 30s, they became the author they needed as a struggling teen, the one they couldn't find. Their award-winning books, including Scars, was Cheryl's own scarred arm on the cover. Stained, hunted, and visions draw deeply from trauma and healing while delivering powerful literary fiction. Beyond the page, Cheryl's impact radiates through social media, articles, raw videos, podcasts, and art that illuminates cult torture, polyfragmented DID, mind control, and the path to wholeness. On Cheryl's last episode, we did together, we explored their testimony in depth. And I would highly encourage you to watch that episode before or after this one to be truly inspired by what Cheryl has lived through and overcome. And on today's episode, we'll be diving deeper into topics pertaining to things like dissociative identities, self-inculturated, dissociative identity disorder, cult abuse and torture, recovery, healing, creativity through art, and so much more. Cheryl's extraordinary journey reminds us that even the most shattered soul can become a masterpiece of strength, beauty, and purpose. They are the living embodiment of defiance, grace, and unstoppable love for themselves, for every fellow survivor, and for a future where no child ever has to endure what they survived. Their light does not merely shine, it ignites revolutions of healing, awakens hearts, and calls every broken soul home. Cheryl is not only a survivor, they are a miracle in motion, a revolution of hope, and the brightest and most colorful light this world has ever seen. Their story is far from over, and because they chose to rise, countless others now know they can too. The future is brighter because Cheryl is here, and together, with hearts open and voices united, we are lighting up the world. So, you guys, without further ado, please help me in welcoming back today's guest of honor, Voice for the Voiceless, Walking Miracle, Bold Survivor Advocate, Introvert Turned Public Speaker, Passionate Purveyor of Truth, and an inspirational system who has transformed the very fragments of trauma that once shattered them into stories that save lives, voices that shatter silence, and a presence that reminds every survivor you are not alone, you can get safe, and healing is possible. The one, the only, Cheryl Rainfield. Cheryl, it is an honor to have you back today. Thank you for joining us once again.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Thank you for making this safe space for so many of us survivors. And also, you have the best introductions. It was really beautiful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

You're welcome. I'm really happy to have you back. The first time you came on, we were talking before we logged on here. It was so heartwarming to see in the comments people that already followed you that were just so delighted to see you on here and all the positivity that people had supporting you and encouraging you. And a lot of people learned a lot that they hadn't heard before, which was also really neat. So you made such an incredible impact on our last episode. And as well on social media, it's been just the same response. Your videos have gone far and wide from the posts that we've made together and collaborated on. And it's just been really wonderful seeing how much people have learned from you and the impact that you make. So thank you for everything that you're doing over there.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Thank you. I'm always glad when people can hear us, survivors, and actually believe us, and that they don't go down into thinking it's a conspiracy theory because it's not. That's what cult wants people to think so that they won't believe us, so that it won't ever stop.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yes, absolutely. And I really appreciate you grounding all of this in reality and all the work that you do on podcasts and on your own channels. And one thing I wanted to start with was something that you all did recently was partook in the collaboration of a conference that's going to be coming out soon. And so because my audience is always looking to get engaged with learning about these topics that you and other survivors are educating on, I wanted to just give you a moment, if you didn't mind, if you wouldn't mind, just to talk about that and maybe share the dates and um a little bit about it so people can go check it out and join it.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Thank you. Uh so Katie Teach and the Brigadoon system and I, or we, because we live with dissociative identity, we did a workshop on working with programming. So working with mind control that cults put in there. Um, how ways that we can like unravel it or find loopholes through it or ways to lower the intensity of the programming. I think it's a really good workshop. It's through the Plural Association. That's a yearly um they put on a yearly conference. It's going to be June the 12th to the 14th. And um, I hope people attend.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Is it going to be something that goes all day on those days or are there specific hours that it'll be running?

SPEAKER_01 8:10

I know that there's um there's workshops all day. I'm just not sure of the hours.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Sure. That's awesome. And then is that um, do we have a website that maybe you could send me after and I'll put it in the show notes for people? Okay, wonderful. And a lot of you on the other side of the screen are always asked, you know, about workshops or conferences or things. So I really wanted to Cheryl to share about um what they partook in and you know that you guys can go sign up. So I'll have that in the show notes for you guys and congratulations on doing that. From what I understand, this is your first time doing a conference like this, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Yeah, I've never spoken at a uh conference uh that comes that talks about dissociative identity or being plural from a lived experience, which is a delight. Like it's really lovely.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

How exciting! How did that make you feel whenever they asked you all to come join?

SPEAKER_01 9:02

I was honored. And it feels really good to be talking about something that to me is so important. Like as cult torture survivors, we have to be able to work on our programming in order to function well, in order to make sure that we're safe, in order to make sure that like we're not going back or we're not still being taken back, or that we're not falling into like self-harm uh programs or shut down memories or like trying to keep us from escaping. Like it's so important to do, but it's not like there's a lot of toolbooks out there or information. So um all three of us are talking from lived experience, and Katie Keach is also talking from clinical experience uh with their work. And I think it's pretty important.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

I do too. And just how we were talking about even on the last time that you were on, about the book that you're trying to get published, how difficult, even if you do have ideas for books and you're able to write it all down, the difficulties in even publishing something can be momentous for a survivor to try to accomplish. I think conferences and conventions and ways that we can get together, like how we are here on social media, online, um, on Zoom, however it is, I think it's really important that we look at those as options to prevent the obstacles that sometimes publishing or even sometimes posting, you know, with shadow banning and censorship. Um, there's so many ways that the world wants to limit this information getting out. And so it's really wonderful that you and Brigadoon System and Katie Keach and others are finding ways to get around that to still reach people and be able to deliver the education without all the strongholds that are you know opposing this information from getting out a lot of the times.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yes, and then it's also helping people know that these like conferences um are around and people can access them. So that's important too. But also social media, like that's helped us reach so many more people.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Oh my gosh, it's been amazing. And I don't know about you, you've been posting, I think, way longer than me, uh whether about your books and and other things, but there's just been such a wave, especially I feel this year and since the Epstein files came out. Yes, of people just waking up and embracing this all as being real. It's not it's rare now to see the conspiracy type comments or people trying to discredit it. And when they do, there's like a mountain of people that come in and you know talk them off that ledge a little bit or try to educate them or tell them off if they're bullying, which is really encouraging, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, I'm I'm really grateful uh to the Epstein uh survivors and then to the people who brought it to the light because there's Epstein survivors who've been talking about it for so many years, just like I and so many other cult torture survivors we've been speaking out for years. I've been speaking out since I was a teen. But now there was uh a wave in I guess the 80s and 90s that people were believing us. And then there was the organized False Memory Syndrome Foundation, which is made up of a bunch of perpetrators, like perpetrators who were accused by their adult children of organized cult torture and child sexual abuse, where they were deliberately trying to discredit us to keep us from being believed when we were speaking out and they were going after therapists, and it set the field back like so much. And then now people are starting to believe us again because of the Epstein Files, and I'm so grateful they are. And I hope that people can retain the reality of what is happening and what is happening throughout the world. The cults are interconnected, even if there is pushback again, organized pushback by abusers. I hope that people will still be able to see that this is something that has happened, has happened likely for centuries and definitely many, many generations back, and that it is incredibly organized and well funded.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yes. And I appreciate you bringing up the false memory syndrome foundation slash satanic panic time. There's videos that I've unearthed from that period where there was a few therapists that were speaking out about what they were learning about DID. There were some experts and some survivors speaking out. And I was just amazed at what they knew in the 90s whenever they were recording all of that and how advanced their knowledge was. And it's just such a shame that it did get set back so much because we could be so much further along. Yeah, that sabotage or I should say effort to sabotage that movement didn't happen then.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yes, and if people had just believed survivors, like all of us, like the cult torture survivors, the Epsteen survivors, survivors of child sexual abuse and uh sexual assault, like if people would just believe us, there would be such amazing change, or at least I hope there would be, and progress. And I think things would be different. And I wish more people would uh believe and care and then want to make change. Even if the change is slow, it matters.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

It does. And it's like you said, with the Epstein files and just so many survivors speaking out, even without the Epstein files, the voices that are out now, and even more therapists are willing to put their face out there, whether it's privately on a conference call or if it's you know on social media and on podcasts, it's been really amazing too. The people that have had the courage and bravery to step up and speak up, whether from personal experience working with survivors, supporting them, or just researching all of this and talking and trying to help be a voice. Um, it's been really amazing watching that movement happen. And I feel like that's a big reason, too, why some of these disclosures are happening because you and others have been pushing and just knocking the door down, pushing the walls down, no matter how many are in front of you. They can try to suppress this information all they want, but at some point there's just too many to censor. And they sort of have to explain it after a while when so many people are asking questions and saying, wait, all of this is happening. It's not just one person, you can't call it a conspiracy anymore. It's not just one or two people that we're hearing about. This is a wave of people coming out all over the world, every country saying the same information a little bit differently, but generally the same exact things they're saying. So at some point, there has to be some type of an explanation. And, you know, it's a really wonderful time that that this is happening now because there are so many people speaking out. It does lend so much credibility the fact that the government released something that helps validate all of you.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

And I think social media is helping with that. It is harder to shut us all down. Whereas before we didn't have that. Like I was speaking at conferences, I had my art up at conferences. I did have art up in like uh newspapers and a traveling art show, but it's not the same as reaching so many people now with social media. And I'm I'm really grateful that people are listening.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

And I think social media, a lot of the intent behind some of why it was important for um predators and perpetrators to have social media was so they could continue their hit campaigns and their smear campaigns against survivors and hope that that would also circulate. And I don't think that what happened was you have you and others have been connecting through social media, survivors and therapists and people that have been awake to all of this are using social media to collaborate, to come together, to create, to work together. And I think that that really bothers the the people that are doing these abuses because they like how you said, you know, we can't at some point we can't shut all of you up. And it it's it's just becoming this tidal wave of information that's coming out and people are believing it and they're following it and supporting it. And, you know, it's really wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

And it also helps survivors when they can hear another survivor talk about things that they have remembered themselves or started to remember themselves, but are maybe scared to talk about. And then they hear someone else talk about it and they see that like that person isn't riddled with guilt or shame or all the things that the cult tried to do and that we're still safe, and they go, Oh, wow, like this is possible. It's possible to talk about it, it's possible to remember, and hey, I'm not alone. And we all need to know that we're not alone in our pain. But when it gets down to cult torture, like the organized cult torture and all the things that the cult did to discredit us when we remember, like to make us not believe ourselves, and then when we talk, like the organized, the props and costumes that they used, um, pretending to be aliens and sexually assaulting us. And then if a survivor can't see through the props and costumes and they just think they were abducted by aliens, well, people are going to go, of course that never happened. But being able to hear another survivor and go, oh, okay, I can see what happened. I know this is my truth. It's so incredibly validating and it's really, really important. And I think it actually speeds up the healing for other survivors to be able to have chunks of their own experience uh validated and um help them be able to see it more clearly. It's it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Right. And that's such a good point, too, because that's always the first combative statement from people who either don't believe, who are perpetrators going online to bully, or just people who are skeptical because maybe they haven't heard of this, is you have false memories, like that can't be real. And that's such a good point that it, these memories aren't fake, they just require context. These are coming from from child parts that are reliving something that happened so many years ago, and a lot of times they're, I would say almost every time, probably they're drugged, they're traumatized, they're in terror, they're being tortured. There's so much going on. Like you said, there's costumes, there's these elaborate sets that are set up. And so if a child is being molested or worse by an by an adult dressed as an alien and they're on drugs and they're they're being tortured and they're frightened and dissociated, you know, when they remember that later on, it's not gonna make sense to them either. They're just gonna know, why is there an alien in this memory? That's so bizarre. I'm gonna go tell somebody about it. And it can seem really outlandish and out there and unbelievable. But when we when we step back and say, okay, there was an alien, what are all the possibilities of how that alien got there? Is it a real alien from outer space? Could it be somebody playing dress up? Could it be AI where maybe there was, you know, something that was transposed in that room with you through technology? There's a lot of different ways that they can stage things. And it's really important too, I think, for survivors to hear those different ways that these abuses can take place and the different ways that the unbelievable can happen, for them to then be able to have a selection of ways that their abuse could have happened and they can figure out how that really outlandish memory that doesn't make any sense to them could have possibly happened.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

And it helps to look at the memory even more closely. And so it can help to ask for cooperation with the personalities inside. Like, can you show me more of the detail? Can we look at it more closely? So then you start to see, oh, okay, here's the costume, here's the edge of the mask, or here's a voice that I recognize underneath the costume, or here I can see the prop, I can see the stage, I can see it's not real. Or it's also asking inside, does anyone have an overview? Because I have uh personalities inside who can see like what the cult was doing, why they were doing it. And that helps me a lot to see through all the props and costumes. And then about false memories, that is not something that can actually happen. That's what the False Memory Syndrome Foundation created, but it's falsely, it's not based on anything that is medical or um any psychiatric, real psychiatric diagnoses. And so we know that you can't actually implant a false memory of a traumatic event. You cannot do that. And what we are talking about in cult torture is so extreme and so traumatic. And it's things that people don't even want to imagine, but we lived through it. So being able to remember it and then talk about it in a real way, it's an actual, it's a healing thing. And it is our histories, sadly, but it is, it's our truth.

unknown 21:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

And for people who don't yet follow Cheryl, they have all of their videos on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. There's some little bit longer videos on there. There's also some really short bits that you can find, but they do a really wonderful job breaking down in a short, palatable way a lot of the things that we're talking about today that we talked about on the last episode, things that Cheryl Uh, has written in books and and has talked about on other podcasts. But I would highly encourage you guys to go follow their content regardless because um you're gonna learn so much. The videos that they put out have helped me. They've helped a lot of other people, and they're very digestible and easy to share with other people and easy to watch over and over again to help get an understanding. Um, and I I really appreciate you doing all of that. You put up a lot of content, Cheryl, and uh I'm always amazed by it. I've told you that. I'm like, how does how do they do this? I have trouble putting one video up and you're doing multiple a day. So really incredible. And you always have really good information on there.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Thank you. I so appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

You're welcome. And I'll have all of the information in the show notes and we'll show you guys that and go over it a little bit later. But speaking of all of this, I thought maybe we could sort of segue the conversation into talking about dissociation and helping break down these concepts for people who are trying to learn and of course survivors who are recognizing that they're dissociative. So I thought I'd I'd hand it over to you to maybe talk a little bit about what dissociation is in general and how it happens.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah. Um, so dissociation, it's a coping technique when we're faced with trauma, but everyone dissociates to some degree. There's a continuum of dissociation. So, like, let's say you're in a classroom and it's really hot in the classroom, and the teacher is kind of droning on and it feels a little bit boring. Your mind's gonna drift, you're gonna go somewhere else. So that's dissociation on like the low end of the continuum. Then you take, say, child sexual abuse, where a child maybe is sexually assaulted, and maybe they feel like they've gone out of their body and they're floating above and they're watching what's happening. That is further along the continuum. And then you go even further where there is calculated cult torture that is happening really frequently. And to survive, we are splitting off parts of ourselves who are experiencing very uh specific forms of trauma that maybe the rest of us can't. And that is built on over the years, and then so there's self-created uh dissociative identity, um, which is what I was just talking about, but there is also cult-created dissociative identity, so um personalities that the cult intentionally creates and with very specific jobs. And so I have I live with both. I live with cult-created dissociative identity or personalities and self-created personalities. I absolutely we had to dissociate to survive and needed parts who could cope with the torture and the trauma and the trafficking and everything that was happening and the murder. And if we did not create the cult-created, cult-trained personalities, the cult would not have stopped the torture. And I believe that our body would have died. There were kids that I saw who could not split, who did die. So it was absolutely necessary for those personalities to be created when the cult was demanding it through the torture and through the mind control. Um, and so they might seem scary for um survivors who are just opening up to them for the first time, where the cult-creative personalities are usually pretty cruel inside and um lacking some compassion and doing things that can hurt us or put us at risk. But if we can work with them with compassion and empathy and see that they were part of our survival, they kept us alive, then we can slowly work with those personalities to change the job to actually be protective now while we're not being hurt and or if we were still being tortured. Like while I was still being tortured, I did work with those personalities uh to help us in some ways hide um softer, gentler parts who were more vulnerable, hide information that we didn't want the cult to know, or at least not be so cruel to us. And that helped us uh working with everyone inside to get safe. And um cult demands amnesia uh between the cult-created and the self-created personalities. We're not supposed to know about them, they're not supposed to talk with each other, and they're not supposed to cooperate in any way. But that means that if there's a lot of amnesia, we're losing big chunks of time, we are more likely to be accessed, we're more likely to be tortured still. And in order for us to get safe, we had to stop losing big chunks of time. We had to stop having amnesia between the personalities. We had to be able to work together so that we could look at the memories because they're suppressed. That's dissociation, that's self-protective of the brain, but it's also intentionally taught by cult to dissociate it, suppress it, not remember it because they don't want us to remember. So we had to be able to look at the memories, retain what we were remembering so that we could retain who actually abused us, so that we could get away from them. And we had to do that multiple, multiple times over the years to get safe. And it was a really long process to get safe. But we could not have done it if we were still losing big chunks of time. We had to work together with inner communication and inner cooperation in order to get safe. And to me, that is like one of the most important things because otherwise, how do you get safe?

unknown 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

How do you identify whether a part is intentionally created by the cult or if it's organic?

SPEAKER_01 27:43

So cult-created personalities have very specific jobs, and what they are doing is following programming, so mind control, and there are steps that they are following, and they are always in some way or another hurting us, controlling us, controlling other folks inside. Um, and it's different than a personality that we may have created uh that uh doesn't like us or or wants to hurt us, it's different because they are not brought out by a cue. Like the cult created personalities can be brought out or start their job by a cue, and a cue is a trigger that sets off the mind control messages and the all the steps. It's not just messages, but it's steps that they have to follow. And it's usually very rigid. And cult-creative personalities usually do not feel like they have choice in their job, they don't feel like they can see the world in any other way, and it's very small and contained. So they also usually only know the cult's torture time, like that's their lived experience. They're not usually out in the what I call everyday time where there's no torture and abuse happening unless they are triggered, they are set off by a cue, and then they're just doing their very specific job and then they're moving back again. So those are some ways that I would uh see the differences.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

When the cult is torturing or trying to deliberately dissociate a child, how do they know the moment of split or that their abuse is working the way that they want it? Is there a towel for that that they can see?

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Well, so they force us to dissociate in the first place. They're um, there's many different ways, but they may start off with meditation music and drugs or drumming or chanting, and then they're moving it up and they're uh torturing us and increasing the torture. And then they are asking for a very specific job to be done, and so uh we we're usually resisting it because we don't want to do whatever they're telling us that we have to do, like we don't want to uh hurt another child, or we don't want to say that let's say they're creating a demon personality, like no one wants to uh be associated that way. But so when the child or the personality finally breaks down and says whatever message it is that the cult is demanding, they can see that that's been accepted and it starts to incorporate and they build on it and build on it. But they're also looking really closely at like our face, our eyes, especially, uh, body language, because the body language is different for different personalities, the voice, the voice is different for different personalities. Um definitely the eyes. You can usually see something in the eyes, and they're very good at that. And then for depending on the job and the cult, uh not every cult may do this. They may also be using, I think it's called biofeedback, where they can see that they've put us in a certain uh dissociative state and how deep it is, but then they are still looking for have you uh given us, regurgitated back the exact message that we've given you and the exact job. And then is it being built on, or does it sound like it's by rote? And they will often, even when we had personalities who were created and came forward, they were forcing us to prove that we absolutely believed it and took it into our core, and they were giving us techniques to do that. Like um, there was a personality that when they were trying to create in a demon personality, they were telling us to take in the hate, take it deep into our core, and feel it deeply. And they had cult all around us in a circle in the room while we're strapped down on a torture chair, and they've already inserted needles into us and they've already attached um a little clamp to one of the needles where it's setting off electroshock. Uh, so the the needle's gone deep into our arm. And so there's multiple levels of torture that are happening. They've already sexually assaulted us, and then each of the adults around the room is yelling with hate, and it I can I could feel the hate, yelling something about how evil we are, about how disgusting we are, about how we should never be alive. And they would repeat it and repeat it and tell us you're taking this into your core, you are feeling it. We can tell if you can't feel it, you are feeling it on the deepest level, you're taking it in and you are making that your only existence and your only being. And then they start to add in layers and layers and layers about like the what the demon looks like, what their name is, any biblical references that they want to pull in or not pull in, and props and costumes, but they're building it from often from an emotional level paired with the torture, like a psychological, so that it goes in really deeply. And we're children, we are so vulnerable and we have no choice, and there are adults around us who we know can murder because we've seen them murder, or sometimes when we resisted, they would actually murder a child to try to ensure our cooperation.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

And for people who might be new to this, or even therapists who are just learning about it, why is it children that they choose? Why don't they use all the time adults for these types of tortures or start way later in life? Why is it important to begin this abuse on children, like how you said in utero is when you believe it began happening to you?

SPEAKER_01 33:44

I think our minds are incredibly flexible when we are children. To my knowledge, dissociative identity cannot be created in an adult, it only happens in childhood. Our brains are still developing and forming. And so they do start the dissociation uh in utero or when we're first born through torture and through other forms because they want to create splits immediately and they want the child to be incredibly compliant. And the whole point of creating personalities, like for the cult, um, cult creating the personalities is so that they can control us on a really deep level, so that even when they are not with us, like so each personality that they create is holding a form of programming, uh like a specific mind control uh program. So uh when we are, say, at school or out in society, they base very core basic programs: don't talk, don't remember, don't try to escape, and the cult is all powerful. There's a few more than that. Um they they base those, they they base cues for those programs, so triggers for those programs on things that other people would think are innocent or innocuous, like children's nursery rhymes, uh popular fairy tales, popular songs, popular body language, so that when we are out in the world, we will constantly have cues set off for those programs. Don't remember, don't talk, don't escape. Cult is all powerful, there's like there's no hope. So that it will constantly be reinforced even when they are not with us. And that is a way to have complete and utter control as much as they can on us. They never want us to be able to talk and talk to someone who might have the power to investigate or stop them, because the cult is getting profit uh from the child pornography, from the uh torture pornography, from the trafficking. And if someone investigates and tries to stop them, they lose the profit, they lose the power, they lose the favors, they lose the connections with uh rich people or leaders or whoever it is that they are potentially blackmailing or um gaining contacts from or contracts. So it's all about benefiting the cult, like the cult making sure that they have complete and utter control over us so they don't lose their victims, so that we don't escape. So that's the whole point of mind control and the creation of personalities uh by the cult.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

And it seems like too, if an adult, for example, had a very healthy childhood and a very healthy They're not gonna split. Right. And even if they were able to, it'd be a lot harder as an adult to get somebody to be fully controlled. Whereas children, like you said, you don't have you have nothing else. You can't defend yourself, you can't go run away, you can't think for yourself really because you're so little, you haven't developed even your brain yet. And so it it does make sense that children would be for many reasons the the perfect victim for this type of thing because they don't have a plate already or a palette of belief systems that they're trying to override. You can just create it from the time they're born.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

And dissociative identity is not created in adulthood, like you can't. So it's it's early childhood that they want to start it, and cults usually it's uh birth onward or before, or at least very young children. Like some survivors remember from two or three or four, but it's it starts really young.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Now you mentioned jobs that parts have different jobs, and you talked about a couple of them. What other specific jobs are useful for the cult that they would want created for different agendas that they have and tasks?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Well, for instance, the trafficking. They want us, like they don't want us to be screaming when they're selling us to someone. They want us to do the job that the person renting us is specifically asking for. So because I live with polyfragmented dissociative identity, those jobs are split up into like many, many, many jobs that for someone else who does not live with polyfragmented dissociative identity where it's so split and fragmented, but they live with um less fragmented dissociative identity. It might be like one personality who has all those jobs. For us, we had a ton of different ones just for the trafficking. So, like there was a personality who did the um SM being the victim of. There was a personality who would be the one who's supposed to be innocent and sweet for the ones who were demanding that. There was a personality who could take really high levels of torture in conjunction with the sexual assault and just be able to take it and not react, or at least not scream or cry. There were personalities who only knew how to pleasure men in a certain way or women in a certain way. Uh, there were baby personalities that the cults would call out in the trafficking for some of the people who rented us who wanted really young children and toddler personalities as well. And those were created when the body was a baby, when the body was a toddler. Um, but the cult was intentionally exploiting that. So there were a ton of very specific jobs just for the trafficking. Then there were personalities that the cult trained through the torture to not cry and to not react. And they used that uh when they were training other cults or people uh who were paying good money for it to teach them how to torture with the most extreme pain, physical pain or psychological as well, but the least physical effects. And so they wanted the personalities who would not react, would not cry, scream, try to get away. And so we have personalities who do not cry and to um actually most of us had now have trouble crying because we were taught not to cry through the torture. But um there were personalities who specifically would numb out of the body and who did not feel pain to the highest degree that they could. There's so many different kinds of oh, even for the trafficking, um, they also created personalities who would ask for it and who would beg for it because there were people who were renting us who wanted that. Like there's so many very specific jobs that the cult created uh just for their benefit, for their psychological, like they would get off on it, on our pain or our terror or our reactions, and then also the monetary gain. Um, there are personalities who whose only job was to shut us down, to keep us from remembering, to keep us from talking. So some personalities would be gaslighting personalities, and they would, if I started to remember, if someone inside was starting to leak the memories and I was starting to remember it, the gaslighting personalities would be going, you're making that up. You're crazy. You must have read that in a book or watched it in a movie. None of it's true. And then I'd be like, uh, maybe I shouldn't be like, and so then I'm doubting myself. And if I'm doubting myself and I'm struggling to remember it, I am less likely to ever talk, which is the whole point. Like, cult doesn't want us to do that. But even, even me, who I consider I've been around forever, I think I actually came about somewhere as the like somewhere when we were the body was a baby. I'm like an everyday personality. I have only fragments of memory from my childhood because most of my childhood was torture or bullying or sexual assault. I have tiny little fragments that I have cobbled together that I thought, oh, this is this is how everybody uh experiences their childhood. And I thought it was whole, but it was not. But they created everyday personalities so that we would function at school, so that we'd function at extracullicular activities without showing as like the huge amount of trauma and pain and despair and wanting to die, even though that was leaking out, um, I could still function because I didn't remember. I didn't remember the torture. Other personalities inside held it. And so um they create everyday personalities, and there's a few of us that we work together um based on the name of the body. So every time someone says my name Cheryl, I'm like, I jolt inside and I'm like, oh, I'm here, I'm here, because that's what the cult taught us to do is to be here in everyday time when that name is used, so that we're functioning. We're like, I'm a protective member of society, and like nobody can see that like we're really being, I was, I'm not anymore. We were being tortured and trafficked as soon as we were home. And in the evening, like at night and in the morning, and my mother was putting drugs in the cereal before we would leave in the morning to numb us and to make us more dissociated and uh calmer. But like, I don't remember, like, I do remember that now because personalities have told me, but like they wanted someone, multiple personalities, who would function without drawing attention to the cult, which did not work incredibly well with me since I showed so many signs of the cult torture. I was so introverted and scared and shy and afraid in the world. And I think I showed so many signs, but I still I didn't know why. I didn't know why I didn't like my parents, I didn't know why I didn't feel connected to my parents. I thought there was something wrong with me until I started remembering, until folks inside were showing me the memories, and then I was like, oh, this is why I've never felt safe with my parents. This is why I've never felt connected to them. It's not something that's wrong with me. It makes so much sense. There's so many jobs. Creates.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Oh my gosh. It's just so horrific to think about you as a little child going through all of this and then having to show up normally and still having to go to school and having to function and have friends and just try to be normal and unbeknownst to you. You're going through all of this stuff at night and on weekends and in the mornings. I mean, how awful you're being drugged before you even leave your house. Was this for you personally? Was this something that you would say it was just an everyday thing? So you didn't really get a break from it every single day. Whenever you go home, there'd be some type of torture, some type of abuse. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Every day, every night thing for me. My parents and extended family were all part of interconnected cults. So maybe one night it would be the satanic cult, another it would be KKK or Nazi. Um, there were women-only cults, there were male-only cults, there was there were military connections, like there were so many cults, and so there was always, always uh cult torture happening. And even at home, my parents were incredibly cold and hard, and they would do torture or sexual assault with like I would never know. The parts of me that lived through it would never know when it would happen. And there would be times when I would come home uh from school, and my mother would greet me at the door, and then she would make me strip all my clothes, and then I'd be on my hands and my knees scrubbing the floor, and then suddenly she'd be sexually assaulting me from behind with a household tool. Like I never knew when something was going to happen. So my my memory, the everyday memories, are tiny little fragments of, oh, I've come home from school, and then blip, there's like all this time missing, and it's because there was torture and sexual assault happening at home too.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Oh my goodness. It's just so hard to comprehend that not having gone through it. And, you know, I look back on my own childhood and just try to think about, you know, was I sitting next to kids in school that were going through that and I didn't know, and neither did they. You know, it almost like makes me like really emotional to think about because you're just so little and you know, you should have been out playing and having fun. And it's so horrific to think that, you know, you weren't being protected and you weren't around adults that saw how amazing you all are and wanted to, you know, love you and protect you. And I'm really sorry you you you all had to go through that. It like really breaks my heart, and it's hard to listen to, you know, it's necessary that we hear it, but it's really sad at the same time. You deserved so much more, and I'm really grateful that you got out of that and you're able to experience the happiness and the joy and those moments and and the things that that you should have been able to experience as a child. Um, and I appreciate you sharing this. I know it's gotta be hard for you to talk about this stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Uh and I'm sorry that it's hard to listen to, and I really appreciate that you do and you can.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

And I think too, it's important that we do realize that I think when I am on social media, everybody categorizes this group of people. They call them things like elites, they they categorize them as pedophiles. And I think it's also important to differentiate like what Cheryl's saying, that these are also psychopathic personalities. They're not just people who are fantasizing about kids every single day. They're people that enjoy harm, harming, whether it's a child, whether it's an animal, things that they perceive as being weak, easy to control. Um, and this is passed down generationally too. You know, Cheryl's talked about that before. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit more, but this isn't just something that, you know, a random adult wakes up one day and they're like, oh, I'm gonna go hurt a kid, or I all of a sudden have an attraction to a child. This is like a learned behavior generation after generation. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Yeah, cult is so organized and calculated, but it's intergenerational. So I know as far back as my great-grandmother, because I remember her being part of the torture and the trafficking, but so is my great-grandmother. It would have been my great-grandparents, but the the men were dead. My grandparents and my parents, my aunts and uncles, every single um person in the adult in the family was part of the one cult or another, or all of them. And I'm sure that it went back many, many more generations before that. And they are so intentional in their presentation, they are so intentional at social masking, like masking incredibly well. Like my mother sang in the choir, my father taught Sunday school, my mother baked cookies for the school and for the church fairs, they volunteered their time. Um, my father had a sense of humor that some people would have enjoyed. And people, um, if they had been our neighbors, but the whole entire street uh was cult members, but um, they would have looked at my parents and thought, wow, well, these are these are nice people. These are people who like care about their children because they seemed to be incredibly overprotective when actually they just wanted to make sure where I was and what I was doing and who I was talking to and what I was saying. But they would have come across to most people who aren't looking really closely at body language or eyes, because eyes show so much of how someone really is. And where they weren't listening to say their intuition really strongly about someone, they just would have thought, well, these are these are pretty nice people. But that is intentional and it's a facade, and it may be like everyday personalities that they have because they also live with dissociative identity because they were also tortured and also had mind control used against them. But at some point they chose to be who they were. They chose to torture and to not protect their own children and to not escape and not get out. Even though it is so hard to get out, they chose it at some point and they have a lack of empathy and compassion. But it is so incredibly calculated. And the cult intentionally has members who go into military, police, doctors, lawyers, teachers, um, social workers, child protective services, psychiatrists, some therapists, so that they are in jobs that they will likely access survivors and be able to shut them down, like so Q programming to silence them, to shut them down, to threaten them, or to cover things up, like military and police and teachers too. Like all of those professions are usually people where they would have to report if they knew about child sexual abuse, even never mind organized cult torture and murder, but they intentionally go into those professions so that they can shut us down, so that they can cover things up. And there's always, always cult members in all of those professions. It doesn't mean in um every single person in those professions is cult, it just means there are always cult members in those professions as well as others. Um and it is again intentionally trying to look like good, protect uh productive members of society uh who are generally concerned about the children. And and religion is another way that cults hide. So at least, at least half of the congregation of the United Church that we went to every Sunday was part of one of those cults or another. At least half. And so there would be orgies in the church basement. There would be after the regular church services and the get-togethers, then there would be cult members going together to torture. Um, they used church graveyards, they used um artifacts from the church. They there were uh torture events that would happen in the in the regular church itself as well as in the basements. Like it is a facade that they use intentionally because people think that if you attend church, it means that you must be a good person, or they claim that as like, I'm a good person because like I go to such and such. And so I'm talking about the United Church because that's what my parents went to and that's where they belonged, the congregation. But there were sex of every single religion that I know of that bought us in the trafficking, that traded us victims for their own victims, um, that used us in torture or used us in rituals. So I am actually really scared of organized religion because of how many of them were you using us kids for profit, for getting off sexually, for child, like for the um trafficking, for torture and murder. So and I have a lot of religious trauma because of um the Christian cults and the satanic cults who used Christianity upside down, and all the other cults who some of them maybe just bought us in the trafficking, but I remember like nuns and priests, I remember um Jewish people, I remember even um uh monks. Like I have a lot of religious trauma because of it.

unknown 53:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

And how has that affected you now? That's something a lot of survivors have gone through. And I think people who didn't go through what you did have a hard time comprehending that something so holy and good in their eyes could be used in such a malicious and inverted and twisted way on a child. And if you could elaborate a little bit on the religious trauma and the religious abuse, I think it would help give people listening just a different context and to help them think as they're talking to survivors, how to be more compassionate if somebody went through that instead of immediately saying, go read the Bible or do this or go to church. You know, I think we we need to have a level of compassion of how we're how we're talking to survivors who went through this and to understand how weaponized this can be in these cult systems.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

That that's a lovely point. And also, I really wish people would be careful about how they talk to us survivors using religion, because it may be a comfort for you, and that's fine, that's good, go with it, but it helps to not force it on someone else, especially when they have religious trauma, because for many of us survivors, it can take us right back down to torture, to murder, to like sexual assault where uh religion was used. Um, for some survivors, religion is a comfort, and that's great for them, but I think it helps to um check it out first with a survivor before you start bringing religion into the conversation, because for some of us, like me, um, it'll take me right back down. So there were many ways that the cults used religion. Uh both the satanic and the Christian cults did use uh artifacts. They used the Bible, they would use some quotes from the Bible, but they would reenact uh scenes from the Bible. So there were many, many years where around Easter they would have me and the other kids dragging wooden crosses on our backs up a hill where we we are we've already were tortured and sexually assaulted, we're already exhausted. Some kids would fall down and they wouldn't be able to get up. The crosses are heavy, it's really hard, and there's men with whips. And so those kids got even more tortured because they couldn't keep dragging the crosses. They would put the crosses in the ground, and then they would tie us up by our wrists. So we're hanging off crosses, the entire weight is going to like our shoulders, our elbows, our wrists. Like I have so much pain in my body in those areas because of things like this. And then they would um torture us again, tell us that we were dead, drug us up so that we're paralyzed and we think we're dead, cut us off the crosses. And then for me, they would put me in a cave, roll the stone in front. I'm paralyzed, I can't move. And then when they roll the stone away and bring me back out, they say, We have brought you back from the dead by the power of, and it could be God, it could be Satan, it's whatever they believe in. And we are the only ones who will ever like bring you back from the dead or um that we have complete control over you. You must obey everything that we say and you must believe in whatever it is that they wanted us to believe, because it would change according to the cult. But they would treat us as if we were Jesus. It's so traumatic. And then when I realized that I was queer and I could talk about being queer in everyday time, they used that in the cult torture and would say that I was going to hell, um, that I had demons inside me, and they had already created demon personalities in the way that I described before and many other ways. And so um they were basically using it to torture me more, using it as an excuse to torture me more, as well as in the trafficking, which is not religious, but they would use that to try and um convince men to pay more so that they could turn me heterosexual, which was you can't do that, you cannot change someone and make them heterosexual. But they used being queer as another way to persecute me in a religious way, and all of it is like so whether they used Satan or whether they used God, there is so they also used um religious hymns, including Christmas ones, to set off, like to pair with mind control messages to set it off so that every time we hear it, uh very specific jobs are supposed to happen, like do not remember, do not talk, um, do not escape, cult is all powerful, all those things. And so there is so much religious trauma that even when somebody in the comments is just saying, God bless, I'm like, I'm having to put up a wall, an emotional mental wall, so that I'm not getting triggered into programming or I'm not going back down into torture because God bless, use like everything that the cult uses is often turned upside down. So God bless actually can mean things like I'm going to be killed by God or I'm going to go to hell. Like it's it's not giving the message that you think you're giving because I'm a cult torture survivor. So it's actually setting off a lot of um really negative messages and trauma that I would prefer not to have to live through really often. And I hope that people are able to hear that and see that they're allowed their own faith. I'm not trying to silence you, I'm just saying please don't try to, it's going to trigger trauma for me. And if you could try and respect that, that would be absolutely wonderful. And it would help so much in actually being supportive if that is your goal. If your goal is to hear survivors support them and say, we've got your back, then it would help so much for me and for other survivors who have religious trauma where they um don't feel comfortable with religion anymore, or um, it brings things up that it would help to be gentle. I know there's survivors who are good with religion, and I'm glad that they can do that, and I can't, but some of us still have spirituality, or we may start to be opening up to spirituality. I am, but it's really new and tentative for me. And the more that people push religion, which is what the cult did, but they used it in a really messed up way, the more it pushes me back away from that. I want to be able to open up to spirituality in a way that is not in any way organized and that is just something that is going to feel right to me. So I'm hoping people can hear that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

I hope so too, because I know a lot of people really do mean well. It's something that's helped them and they're trying to be supportive and don't realize the harm that it can do, and even the way that it can trigger somebody in a very negative way that they're not anticipating because to them they grew up with it being this very good thing, you know, that helped enrich their lives, that helped get them through hard times. And again, it's just so hard to fathom for people who didn't go through what you did that something that was so good in their in their normal life could be used in such a horrific way in somebody else's life. And so I think the more that we can talk about this and normalize these conversations, the more it's going to help people who are trying to be supportive in actually being supportive and not pushing away people that they're genuinely trying to reach out and do good for, you know, and so I do appreciate the people in the comments that do say really supportive things, or even, you know, I'm praying over you and things like that. And like how Cheryl said, God bless, I know that those comments are coming from a good place and it is really appreciated. I just think we can come around and try to figure out other ways that we can uh say the same thing in a way that's going to actually be very supportive for the system that's coming forward and speaking and not offending anybody or triggering somebody and putting kind of a negative, um, a negative twist on what you're trying to say. I've had uh a survivor come on and she was saying she really wanted to read the Bible. She was interested in like, okay, you know, a lot of people are suggesting that I sort of get back into spirituality. I'm gonna do it. She grabbed the Bible and realized the only way she could read it was inverted. The whole thing turned satanic. Her parts were trained to read it backwards almost. And so she couldn't even read the Bible, but that's what everybody's telling her to do. And so she had to find like an audio book and she's like listening to it. And then there's other survivors who were specifically abused by the words God and Jesus. And so they use alternative words like Yahweh, yaw, you know, which has been helpful for them. But again, you know, we have to, we have to let survivors, if that's what they want, ease into it in a way that works for them and to not just push what works for us onto them without being compassionate to what they may have gone through. And so I appreciate you sharing some of that. It's absolutely heartbreaking. And that was one of the hardest things for me to take in was that level of evil that that people could take what's known in the world as being the most holy thing, the most sacred thing in a lot of people's lives, and twist it so horrifically and terribly on these young children going through this, that it's something that affects them throughout their entire life, you know. And so we really do have to hold space and have compassion. I'm really sorry that you went through all of that, you and others.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

Thank you. I think a really easy way to respond if someone wants to be supportive and they don't know if there's religious trauma for a cult survivor, if you just say, I hear you, I believe you, like I care about what you're talking about, those are really, really compassionate, kind ways to support a survivor.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

Thank you. I actually meant to ask you that, and then I forgot as I was talking. So thank you. That's a really good uh, you know, we need to give people alternatives on ways that they can overcome their natural responses or things that they want to say to be more compassionate to begin with. So that's really, really helpful. And so from what you were saying, too, something that I wanted to bring up, it goes into what we were just talking about with the religious trauma and with society, but also bringing it back to systems and parts as well. You mentioned demon parts, and in our last talk, we showed a photo of robots. So there's different non-human parts that are created within. And something that I see sometimes on social media, and I think people mean well by it, the biblical demons that people talk about when they're like, all these people are demons. You know, people like to say that word and throw it out. And there's parts inside these survivors that have that, and it's so offensive to just throw that out and to make it a blanket statement that demons are just these horrific, horrible things. In your Bible, they might be, but that isn't, you know, these little children that are named demon because they're being programmed and abused and tortured in the most heinous, horrific ways. They're innocent kids, you know, and they're hearing that every time somebody says that, they're hearing the word demon and you're calling out to them and saying these things to them too. So I don't know if you want to touch on that, but that's something else that I've I've I've noticed people also don't, they're not aware of. And again, I think they mean well by saying something like that, but it's very offensive when you understand what these abuses are and the parts that are created because of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

Thank you. I think for us it's not offensive, but it will immediately trigger the religious trauma. It will trigger um maybe the demon personalities and how they were created and the torture, but it's also triggering all the ways that Colts said that like we were a demon. While they're torturing us, it takes us back to torture. But also, I think if we are saying that the abusers are demons or the abusers are inhuman or they're monsters, I think it's taking away from the responsibility of the abusers. And it's also saying that like you can't imagine a human being so evil or cruel. But cult abusers lack compassion and empathy. They are incredibly calculated and incredibly cruel, and they do really horrific things, but they're human. They're human still. It's really important to pay attention to that. I think it's maybe a way people are actually trying to dissociate themselves from like how horrific people. People can be. But I want the cult abusers. I want people to see that they still have responsibility for what they did. And they had choice. And it was intentional and calculated. And it was very, very human. And then so saying also that like they are demons. It will always bring me back to this like satanic cult torture and the Christian cult torture. But satanic where they're dressing up in black robes and they're using like they're torturing us on stone altars and raping us. But then they're doing rituals where there's chanting, there's drums, and there's torches, and they are pretending that there are demons in the midst when it's just them coming to torture us and sexually assault us. And then the creation of the personalities where they actually think that they're demons, where the cult may have um projected an image on a wall to make the personality, the child, think that that's what they looked like, or they would tell us what we looked like. And so we see it inside. But when we start to work with that personality and we can uh give them compassion and empathy, we can hear how they were created with the torture and the trauma, when we can go through that process with them and we truly treat them kindly, then that facade, that image of a demon dissolves, disappears, falls apart, and we see the child beneath, the child that we were, the age that we were, and we see it truly. And that child is then able to over time work with us to change their job inside so that it's not what the cult gave them. They see that they are not a demon, they do have choice, they don't deserve to be tortured, no one else inside deserves to be tortured or controlled or silenced, and healing happens. But if people on the outside keep reinforcing it, it makes it harder too. So that's that would be another reason not to use that language. Never mind that it takes us back to the trauma every time.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

Now, what other types of parts are created? Because you've mentioned demons, robots. Um, there's obviously human parts that are made. What's the purpose of creating different gendered parts, different age parts, different uh non-human parts in a system? And what's the importance of the different layers of these parts that they're creating?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

Okay, so when the cult creates uh non-human personalities, they are looking for specific traits. So, like for the robot, they are trying to create a personality who will just follow orders and have no emotion about it, but just completely follow an order. Um, when they're making a dog personality, say they are looking for um complete submission, but complete submission for anal rape or for other forms of abuse and degradation, like um eating, like being on hands and knees and eating out of a bowl is a is a really horrible way to treat someone, but it's making the child feel that they are unequal and have no rights. And also the dog is not supposed to be able to speak human. So, like it's a form of silencing, but it's a form of control in a different way. And they would also pull out like a dog personality for some of the trafficking or for some of the sexual assault that they are doing themselves, and then a robot personality would be very specific to take orders to not feel, and they want um they want to exploit both vulnerability and emotion, and they want to turn it off for different jobs um and for different uh aspects that they are like things that they are asking us to do. And it's all layered with multiple multiple steps. Uh, we created some not human personalities ourselves to uh give us hope. So, like I have um, like say a Pegasus and a unicorn and fairies and dragons who all felt like they could hold on to hope or healing in a way that cult couldn't touch because they may not have known about them, because we hid them inside, or because it's like they it wasn't what they were creating, it's what we were creating. Um, but for cult they were they intentionally so they they created like a marionette personality, and that's a puppet. And that is that has someone else above in the personality system who is directing them with what to do and what the um how to react in the world. They have personalities who are shadow puppets um who make sure that they are watching what we're doing and then coming, like directing us to like how to be in the world or how to answer or what to see or not to see. They have sometimes they create personalities who are made up of fog or um dark or whatever, and they think that that's their body and that's how they look, and they bring them forward to cloud our mind to make it harder to think, or to cloud our vision so that we cannot see perpetrators' faces. Like there's a very specific job for every type of personality that they create, all to protect the cult. It's always to protect the cult or to um increase their profit or to continue uh what they're doing. We have soldier parts that were created to protect information, to keep those memories um locked up and away from everyone else, and to enforce rules inside. There's so many personalities for very specific jobs to either make sure that the rules are followed, the cult rules, or to to again help with cult gaining profit or compliance.

unknown 1:12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

I think what you're saying too is important for people to understand that parts can be cult created organic, but there's also parts that are utilized internally, and then there's parts that they utilize externally too for specific jobs.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:25

Yes. I have many uh cult-creative personalities who never come out in the body and are only what feels like in the back of our head who tell us things. Like the cult intentionally created personalities who hated us, and that was their only job was to hate us. And so for most of my life, I lived with constant self-hate that was that felt like as bad as my abusers because they had absorbed and been taught everything that our abusers taught us about hating us, and it was constant. And that was to lower my self-confidence, to lower my ability to function well in the world, to make it harder for us to believe ourselves because we had been fighting back since we were a little kid, and they wanted to make sure that we would not continue to function well and that people wouldn't believe us or hear us, because clearly we weren't going to become a cult member. So they created personalities just to hate us, they created personalities just to criticize us. We used to have so much self-criticism in everything that we did. Like even if we said like five words, they would be criticizing every single word, taking apart our body language, taking apart our tone of voice, taking apart the how we were dressed and how we like every single thing. And it was constant, and it was like having an abuser in our head or multiple abusers in our head, and it was the cult's way of controlling us again and trying to make sure that we would stay silent, that we wouldn't escape, that we wouldn't remember. It was all to control us, but it was it was pretty constant in that took a lot of work to work with those folks inside and change their jobs.

unknown 1:14:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:01

What was the the ways that you found to be successful with that? I think a lot of survivors, when the parts come up that do present as demons or do present as even a soldier who might be very militant and you know, not necessarily super friendly and chart uh charming. I think the natural tendency to be like, whoa, that is intense. I'm gonna just shove you back down and lock you back up again. I don't want to deal with that, or you're being mean to me, or this is scary. How do you deal with parts that come up that went through all that trauma and were trained and conditioned to be these certain personalities that might not be the pleasant, nice front-facing personalities? And how can survivors contend with those in a way that helps them heal and grow together with those parts versus feeling that reaction of, I'm just gonna shove you back down and I don't even want to deal with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:51

But shoving them down doesn't work. They're just gonna get stronger and they're gonna keep breaking through in times that you don't want them to. So I think I think I've already talked about it, but um, I do internal rescue work with those folks inside. So first I ask them, can they tell me when they were first taught this behavior, this way of thinking, or when they first remember that they were created? And that is always, always for us um a torture memory or a mind control plus torture. So I am witnessing their torture, and then I am responding with compassion and empathy, and I'm telling them like that never, ever should have happened. I'm so sorry that you went through that. I'm so grateful that you were able to, because like we wouldn't be here otherwise, but I'm so sorry that should never ever have happened. And then I am visualizing rescuing them, taking them out of that memory. So I draw on like my protector parts and my wise parts and my mothering parts, um, but especially the protectors, and many of them were actually what I would call hard parts, so created by cults to be like really tough and mean and cruel to us. And we've worked with them over the years and they've changed their jobs, and now they like protecting others inside and being the opposite of that. So they'll come forward and they'll like imagine smashing all the cult abusers, abusers into the ground or like throwing them to the moon, but throwing them through the building to the moon or something like that. And then we visualize rescuing that personality out of their torture, so like taking off all the torture implements and um like the straps and everything else, and taking them to a land inside that is isolated from all the other cults uh created personalities because we don't want them influencing them, but where they are safe and where they're separate from others, so they can't hurt them and they can't be hurt. And uh a wise part for us usually will come forward and talk to them and ask them if you could do what you want to do, like anything, if you could imagine anything, what would that be inside? And they often have ideas, and so then we will um also visualize healing the body so that there's no pain in the body and healing all the wounds instantly, and we just visualize like water that's healing. I don't know why we do that, and light sometimes light, sometimes light can be triggering, and then we will give them whatever it is inside that will help their new job. So, like I've had personalities who used to have to give everyone inside really horrible negative messages. Some of them have chosen to be the opposite, some of them have chosen to be almost like cheerleaders, even though they do not like that word, and some of them have chosen to um give healing messages inside. And so we visualized, like they have uh their little a lot of these are kids, like really little kids, right? So they'll have like onesie outfits that might have like flowers or sky or stars or butterflies, and then they'll have a little pouch. And for one of them, um, she brings out a bottle of bubbles, and then um whispers to the bubbles, the message that she wants to tell everyone, and then the bubbles go throughout the entire system, giving that message in a whispery way. And then we have another one who has a pouch of butterflies and the same thing, whisper to the butterflies, and the butterflies flutter around and tell everyone inside the positive messages everywhere that it goes to. And that's how we've changed for them the jobs inside, but that can take a while. Like we still need to um probably before we've changing, like working to change the job, we need to refute the cult lies. So give the opposite messages of the lies and also help them see that they have choice, like freedom, agency, help them see that um they can choose to be whatever they want to be, and that they're not going to be tortured anymore or punished for having a different job or a different choice, and um allowing them to see that like also educating sometimes, like if the cult said that the that personality died, and so that personality thinks it's fine to uh, which a lot of survivors have, um, that it's fine then to try and kill the body because they will just take over afterwards, which is what the cult told them. Um, then we're helping them see actually we weren't actually dead. Look, the cult used drugs, they paralyzed us, we couldn't move. Yes, they put us in a coffin and buried us, or yes, they did, like whatever they did, but we the body wasn't actually dead. Or they may have taken us to the point of death and back again, but they resuscitated us, and you could only do that so many times and not have brain damage, or not actually like not come back. And you are part of the whole system that only has one body, so we can't actually kill the body and survive. You will not be there, none of us will be there if you kill the body or if you hurt the body, like we're trying to educate them and help them see the present and the now and what's different, and um, it's so important to work through those lies because otherwise they still they're still holding on to them, and that helps a lot. But always with respect. Thank you, but always with respect. I have to add that in there, always with respect and compassion and empathy, because that's the opposite of the cult, and that means that it goes in there so much deeper because the cult only had hatred. They may have at times, like with the other mother and the other father, the cult member who would like try to bond with the child, they may have tried to pretend compassion and empathy, but it's fake. And you can feel it because then they would switch and they'd be torturing us. If we don't come to these personalities who only ever, ever had tortured hate, if we don't come to them with compassion and empathy, it's not going to shift anything. The compassion, empathy, and respect are so important, guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:06

And you and others are really teaching us the value of that, you know, society has lost itself a lot of empathy and compassion just through all the ways that we are constantly bombarded by trauma ourselves, you know, through the news and all this bleakness and prices going up in this. And, you know, there's so many ways that that we've just kind of like shut off our own hope and our compassion for the world. And you and others are really bringing us back to that and showing us how healing that is, not just for survivors, but you know, we can really do a lot in the world with being able to tap back into that and give that to each other and you know, really center on that. So I really appreciate you bringing that back to the focus. And one thing I wanted to ask you, you know, DID is created in in such a horrific way. You know, there's not, it doesn't happen without extreme trauma in some form or fashion, unless it's on the other end of the spectrum, like you said, daydreaming in class or driving somewhere and you kind of zone off and all of a sudden you're there. You know, that doesn't necessarily need trauma to happen, but the extreme end of, you know, polyfragmented or DID, it's really sad how this has to form and the fact that it's weaponized. However, after healing, it's really amazing how you and others have found ways to almost have advantages in certain ways with the different skills that your parts have learned and being able to give them jobs that can benefit you and the world, not ways that benefit cult anymore. And I wanted to ask, you know, for you personally, in what ways have these parts coming together and being able to heal, how has that been an advantage to you to have parts with things that you're doing, whether it's writing books or creating content, how have you found ways to work with these parts? And sort of, I want to shine a light on how amazing the idea is also, and you know, how incredible all these parts are and how brilliant and talented they are, and the things that they're able to do now that they're out of the cult and are able to choose their own jobs and do what it is that they want to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:05

Okay, so when I am talking with you, I am intentionally drawing on my educator parts who can see an overview of the cult torture and understand how things were put together and why cult did what they did and what happened to us. So I am drawing on them and my information holders who also hold a lot of information, and my wise parts and my mothering parts and me, like author and everyday part, all together so that we can talk in a way that other people can usually hear and understand. So to me, that's a benefit in our communication. I have like me, the author, I have that um technique for educating and talking. I also have artist personalities and I have different artist personalities, and each of them use a different medium, but they each uh learned the skill that they needed for that medium and to communicate. I have my mothering personalities, and I actually have therapist personalities who will help support my fellow survivors who are friends where we're going back and forth and who can draw on a lot of wisdom and our experience at the same time, and um, in small ways, because I get overwhelmed because there's so many survivors who write me in small ways, give some information or techniques that may help other survivors. Um I think we work really well together, and I've made together, we have made a choice to have what we call functional multiplicity, which is just that we function well together, we work well collaboratively, we have inner communication and inner cooperation, and that helps us in the world. We're not choosing to integrate, but that means that I can hear often other perspectives, and so um say I'm having a really rough day. Sometimes I will intentionally draw on child parts, child parts of me who have hope and who can see hope in the world when I cannot. And that helps shift me into a different space. I have child parts who will appear on the trail and go like, look at that beautiful little butterfly, look at this flower, look at the bunny. And I've I came out feeling really depressed, and then they're showing me these things, and I'm going, Oh, yeah, that's beautiful. And they're helping me feel it and they're helping me see it. And I may not have noticed those things without that child part who um has is playful or hopeful. And then even my artist parts who will see the world in a different way, and that can help me sometimes when um I may otherwise just have stayed in stayed in the depression, and they're like shifting me out and going, there's beauty in the world. Or when I am really strongly into despair and hopelessness, I'm definitely drawing on those kid parts and also mothers and healers and therapists who are going, no, there is so much hope in the world. Like, look at all the change that is happening. It might be slow change, but there is always hope. As long as there are people who are here who are feeling and who are talking out or who are hearing, there is change in the world, and there is hope. As long as people care, there is hope.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:32

That's amazing. It's neat. I think CID is really fascinating after the healing part when you realize how much, you know, we talk about all the time, how much effort and time and money and resources went into creating these parts and teaching them their jobs and their skills, you know. And of course they're they're used and created in in these horrific ways, but it's so amazing watching them all take their power back and saying, wait, I was trained and they did put a lot into me. Look what I can do now that I'm not working for them. You know, look what I can do in the world. And it's really amazing the ways that you and others have been able to foster that corroboration inside so you guys can collectively come forward and you know work together as a team instead of against each other, like how the cult creates the parts to, you know, not work together and to you know silence the body and the mind and the voice. And so it's really incredible how you're able to do all of this, you know. And I think it's neat too for people to hear that it's not just one person talking whenever you're presenting, there's a team, there's a team of you who are coming forward and and collectively working together, which is really, really amazing. And I thank all of all of you for coming on and doing this. And before we wrap up, because I know we're coming up on time, did you want to flow through your artwork speaking of your art, your artist parts and the parts that the drawings that you've had? Um, because you provided a few more today. We had a few last time, so um bring this up on the screen and then we can share. Show people where they can connect with you. But I really wanted to show these. Your artwork's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:04

Thank you. So we have tree women inside. I thought I created all of them, but um, I now know that there were women-only cults who also created tree women, meant to be observers, especially of other cults, and then bring the information back to them. But those personalities changed on their own because they were close to my wise parts, and they changed to not bring anything back and to just be wise and rooted and grounded. And I'm really grateful for them.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:33

What an incredible photo and drawing. Thank you. And this one too, this one makes me happy.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:40

I have a lot of really hopeful uh kids and uh creatures like Pegasi, and there's stars in the background, so that would be in Starland. And I love how they can give me hope even when I don't feel like I have any. And there's Starland. And kids do support each other. Um there are so many kids who have empathy and compassion. And I feel like most of my personality system is made up of kids, even the adults. We were they were created or we were created when the body was a kid. So there's a lot of playfulness and hope which we needed and which we kept separate from what the cult was doing and creating, because that was a way to survive, but also to keep our goodness was to hold on to imagination and play. Yeah. Oh we have a lot of uh personalities who feel like they can fly in the inner world, and we've always loved butterflies. I know that butterflies uh can be used in the mind control and the cult torture, but for us, they feel like hope and magic and strength, like how fragile they look and how far they can fly. So for us, it's a hopeful thing. And that kid has um clouds and sky on their clothes, and so that um that's also part of our inner world, cloud land and star land and magic inside.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:24

You know what? These cults have taken everything good and inverted it, and we need to take everything back. Butterflies are beautiful, and we shouldn't avoid them or think that they're bad because the cult uses them. They existed before the cult took it and inverted it. You know, these are creatures of the earth. And I love that you and others are like reclaiming that, and we need to normalize that. You know, we need to stop giving the cult the power to weaponize every little thing against us, and we need to bring these things back to their normal meaning and to the fact that they're, you know, creatures of the world. So I love that you have a child here playing with them and that we can look at it in a really positive light.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:00

Thank you. Like for us, it does feel so hopeful. I know for some survivors, it would trigger them back down to their trauma and the mind control messages, and I respect that. And for us, we really love butterflies. And this art is uh showing programming, showing the mind control. So mind control messages and programming, like the actual steps. It's never just one time, they layer on many, many times of torture and of the same message and then layered and layered. So here uh we have electro shock being used against us, telling us that we must open the door as soon as we hear the cue. And the cue here is like the doorbell or a knock. And so as soon as soon as there's the doorbell sound or a knock on the door, they're saying open the door. And they're saying it in a really cruel, hard, cold way, open the door, and they are shocking us until we open the door. And then uh, because it's layered and it happened many, many times, they also used uh visual and audio and electroshock at the same time while we're being strapped to a torture chair where we're hearing the ding-dong or a knock, and then we're seeing the words open the door, and then we're being shocked. And then again, it goes to putting us in front of an actual door, and there's the the sound of the doorbell, or there's a knock, and it's like you must open the door, and so it becomes like an automated action for that personality whose only job is to open the door to cult.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:36

And for reference to you, this was you drew this in 2006, 20 years ago. You've been on this journey. I mean, I'm sure it was longer than that, but just for this alone, for this revelation and memory, this was 2006, 20 years ago, whenever you put this on paper.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:53

Yeah, I've been working on the memories a very long time and before that as well, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:59

And this one I wanted to make a point to show. You held it up last time, and there's just so much incredible detail that we couldn't see just from holding it up, and we didn't have the file uh via email at the time. So I wanted to bring this up and and just let you um talk about it for a minute, and I'll kind of zoom in and we can look at it a little bit closer than we were able to before.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:21

Oh, good. I'm glad you zoomed in. Thank you. So there is a tree woman that's in the nose area um and with branches branching out, and then behind the eyes, there are kids watching or other personalities watching. I feel like uh there is a waiting room in my head where there's windows as the eyes, where many personalities look out before they are fronting, so before they're coming out into the body. And it used to be before we had inner cooperation that when they would come forward in the body and they would come forth really strongly, it would kick me out. Um, and they would just be functioning and I would lose time because that's how it needed to function while we were being tortured. Now we have cooperation, and usually that like that doesn't happen anymore. Although sometimes if they come forward really strongly, um then they will be in control of the body and I'll just be watching, which is a really strange feeling. Um, but I'm always there. So that's me in the center uh writing um as the author above the tree woman. And then to the right is uh one of my wise women who is um has her hand on my shoulder. Um behind me there is an artist personality, and then also between the artist personality and the wise woman, there is a warrior woman who is a protector, and then on the left side, there's a mothering personality holding one of the baby personalities. And hugging the uh wise woman is a child from Starland, but who's uh clearly a little vulnerable. And then on the other side is one of my tough guys who was created by cult to be a really cruel and who we have worked through um with him to be um a protector, and he's he's much gentler with everyone inside, but he he has a little bit of an edge still, but and he likes to pretend he's tough, but he's he's a gentle, um gentle enough. And then there is what looks like an older woman with pearls around her neck and and like a dress, and she's worrier, she just worries about everything, and that's her job to try and pretend predict anything horrible that's gonna happen. So, and many of these personalities, I I have I made this drawing to put into the book that is currently with publishers on cult torture and dissociative identity and mind control, and many of these are named in the book, but not all of them. Oh, there's super kid at the top. We love our super our super kid, supergirl, um, because she feels like she is invulnerable and she helps other personalities inside and she tries to help rescue them. And there's a kid from um right next to her at her feet, who is um from Cloudland and lives in the clouds, and then below Supergirl is a kid from Rainbow Land who lives with in rainbows. Um and next to her, there's I think it's another mothering part who's trying to help one of the traumatized kids who cannot talk and who's just trying to pull inside and like not uh not be seen. Um there's a kid who's flying uh right out of uh below Supergirl and um out of Tough Guy. I have many kids inside who feel like they are um made out of wind or trying not to be seen by cult, yeah, and who are trying to fly and escape away. And there's lots of little kids all throughout.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:00

This is just amazing, all the details.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:05

There is uh on one side there's a fairy girl, and again, there's butterflies because we take it as something beautiful, and I see them as having magic and hope. And then on the opposite side is a kid from storybook land who's like coming out of a book. Uh, we created some personalities and some safe worlds inside out of what we read in books, and books were a huge part of our survival, like we had to have dissociative identity, we couldn't have survived without it, but books also felt like we couldn't survive without it because there was hope in books, there was healing, but also there were kind people in books. When I didn't have any kind people around us, um, books were showing us that the world could be different, even if we didn't experience that. Um, it gave us some hope. And so we did create lots of personalities. And right beside the storybook uh kid, um, who also has like a lot of writing on their clothes, and so um showing for us that like they're being created out of that book, right beside them is um a dog personality who's who's not an actual dog, but who has a collar around the neck and who was forced in that position. And then right below the nose is um a mermaid or a myrrh person um who again was trying to, so this is a mixture of self-created and cult-created. The mer the myrrh person is uh self-created, trying to find um escape and be able to breathe when we were being drowned, um, which the cult repeatedly did and then resuscitated us. So that personality is like, I can breathe even if I can breathe underwater, even though we couldn't. And it was a way to try and feel like we could still live. And there's a kid holding a squishmallow on the other side. And um, we have a lot of squishmallows that you may have noticed in our place, and that's been such a comfort. There's a robot uh personality because the cult did create a lot of robots, and in the lips are personalities who um one of the jobs that the cult gave personalities, the cult creator jobs was to keep us from talking, and so there are very specific programs, and one of them is like cement lips, it's what I call cement lips, where I feel like I literally cannot open my lips, or where the lips feel like they've been sewn, because the cult actually did sew the lips. Um, and so those personalities cannot talk, and they they it feels like they live in our lips. And right below them, you can actually see an abuser personality who was taught by cults. Um, it's on the far left, and it's male, um, who is trying to whip, I think, uh, other personalities, and that is a job that was given to them by cults. And there is a personality below that in the chin, who is just in the pain and the trauma of um the torture, and really small, right below the pain one is a kid in a bubble. And so if you if you follow down, there's some bubbles that are being blown, and that personality inside us um blows bubbles and transports kids or other personalities throughout the system, even to lands that the cult said we could not reach. And so that's her job, and that's a kid being transported in a bubble. And then there's someone who's screaming, who holds a lot of pain, but who's able to vocalize it. And then beside them is our educator personality who is joining us today to talk about all the torture. And um, below them is someone who it was taught by cult to silence us, and to the far left, there is a male personality who is saying forget and is spewing blackness, and that again is a job by that the cult created to make us forget. And so there were times that I would remember that someone inside would bring me the memory, and then this personality would like spew out blackness inside, make us forget, and it would be like it was never there in my brain, it was gone, and I couldn't access it until like they uh another personality would bring it up again years later, but it was gone from my consciousness because that was his job, because he was taught through torture. And above him, where the blackness is going, there is uh an abuser kid in a black cloak, and he he was given that uh like wearing those clothes, but also the job. Um, and he thinks of himself as really tough and grown up, and all like a lot of the abuser personalities or the cult creator personalities, they think that they're adult, but when we start talking to them and working with them, they shrink down to the kid and see that they really were um a child during all this torture. We also have on the opposite side a kid who's on a flying carpet, um, and that's how they get through the whole system, but also away from the torture. And then there is a child whose wrists are bound. Um, and that would be victim girl inside us, who whose only job was to take on the torture and submit to the torture and be like a portal for the other um co-created personalities for the programming. And then reaching over to her to try and comfort her is um, I think they're flying in. So it's one of our healer personalities, but who was trying to stay hidden from the cult if they're flying in. So and oh, there's also a kid holding up her hands, and um she had feels like she has blood on her hands from a really horrific memory of like uh the cult pairs each of us up. I think I talked about that last time with uh an unregistered child, a child born into the cult only by a cult member or a cult victim, and then we're given that friendship for a year or two and then forced to kill them. And that child feels like she forever has Judy's blood on her hands and um has all the pain and the torment. Oh, and I think that there is um right next to her someone in a helmet, which means that is um a knight personality who wants to protect and rescue the others inside. Yeah, it is a knight right next to her, and in between, there's little tiny faces of other kids because there's so many folks inside.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:08

Oh my gosh. I really feel like art is such a good bridge to help solidify and get rid of the gap between knowledge and understanding. You know, you can hear about DID all day, but this really helps create a way that we can actually have an understanding of what that is within a person if it's not something that that you have or that you went through as a child. And this is just this is one of the most phenomenal pieces of art I've ever seen, and the detail that went into it and everybody who is in it, and to be able to see this in a body, you know, it's not just random, you know, people that you drew on on a page, these are your parts within a body, you know, that you can see drawn out. And it's just absolutely beautiful how you fit them all in and all the compassion that's in there, but also all the emotion from parts that might not be really happy or that hadn't healed yet or found a different job. Um, and then to also see parts that maybe were perpetrators or who were protective parts or silencing parts, and and for you to talk us through kind of their journey and how now they're nicer. Um, I just think that's amazing. And then to tie in the robot parts and and the kids that live in Starland or Cloudland, the bubbles. I mean, just the detail. This is just such a phenomenal piece of art. I really appreciate you sharing it with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:37

Thank you. And I I do think that art and also fiction, it can help people understand on another level. Um, like talking about things and also nonfiction, it's really important to help us understand. But sometimes it takes art or fiction to help us um understand on like an emotional level. And I was surprised. I took this. Um, my naturopath is incredibly good with all of us. Like she's good with the DID, she can hear even memories, and that was so helpful to me, um, especially in a year or two when I didn't have a therapist, because a therapist is really important. I took this piece of art into her and she was like, oh my gosh, I understand now on a much deeper level than she did just by even seeing us talk with her and like hearing things. And it was it was nice to hear that like we all learn differently, but sometimes a visual or sometimes like fiction can just help us understand more deeply. And I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:35

Yes, because this is so hard for anybody to comprehend that there's that this level of of evil and malice exists where people intentionally do this to a child. It's bad enough if it happens accidentally to a child, you know, through some type of trauma. But to think that people are aware of this and weaponize it and have found a way to like institutionalize it and create a business out of it unbeknownst to the child and to the rest of the world, you know, it can just be such a shock for people to learn that that this exists and then to try to understand how it works and how, like you said, somebody can go traffic kids at night and torture them, and then the next day they're your pastor in church and you see them at work, or they're your lawyer, they're a police officer, you know, and helping us understand DID can help us understand how how and what makes that possible, in addition to understanding narcissism and psychopathy and the different ways that abuse over time, if somebody doesn't get out and heal, what that can turn somebody into and how destructive that can be to a person as a whole. Um, you know, and I think art is such a wonderful way for us to grasp that and then to also just take in how amazing it is that all those parts were created through trauma and now they're all coexisting, they're all learning to heal, they're learning to work together, and that that is also possible, that the evil is one side of it that that it can be used for, but that all of that can be whole and heal again, and that you can have a life that that does have joy and happiness and that parts can work together to create and to speak out and to do really beautiful things, you know. And I'm just really I'm in awe of of all of you and you know the fact that that you are here sharing and are able to articulate all of this. And I'm just I'm grateful for you, for you, Cheryl. I'm grateful for all of you. And uh, you know, like I said in the beginning, I really would love for people to support you on social media also because there's so much good content that you're putting out. And so, did you want to go over quickly before we wrap up where people can connect with you also?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:38

Uh thank you. So I'm on TikTok and Facebook and Instagram and YouTube. I've just started Substack. Um, I don't have all my videos up on YouTube that I did um on TikTok and Facebook and Instagram, but I it has all my current ones. And it's it's really lovely to have a space where people can hear me.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:03

Yes, and she or I should say they, I'm getting better at using these different pronouns and being appropriate. But Cheryl has thank you, thank you for being patient and for helping us. And um they have amazing videos on on their YouTube um that you guys can go check out. I'm gonna share their website also, but on YouTube also, um you guys can scroll down, and there's actually a lot of videos down at the bottom too where Cheryl does talk about their books. So if you guys are interested too, and I'm gonna show I'm gonna show their website in just a second, but there's also videos on their books too that you guys can go look at and you guys can see author Cheryl um, you know, in on this as well. I don't see that quite as much on your Instagram or TikTok unless it's buried, but people can see that on your YouTube too. But as you can see, there's just such a wealth of knowledge on here and the video. Can be anywhere from you know four or five minutes, they can be 60 seconds, but there's just a lot of short palatable videos that you know aren't interview long or length. And you guys can share these on your social media, you guys can watch them, you can share them with others. Just a really wonderful resource for learning about these topics in a way that's digestible. Um, and I think it's a really great way that you all have figured out how to approach these topics and to break it down for people. Um, and then I also want to share your website as well, because this is where I know not all of your books are in print, which is a shame that this stuff is so difficult to get published and to keep in circulation. But there are books that people can buy of yours and read online as well. And so I wanted to let you share about that for just a second, too.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:53

Thank you. Scars and hunted the publisher did go under, but you can still get the audiobook of scars, which would support me as an author, but also it can feel nice to be read too. Uh, and that one has helped save lives, it's um helped survivors stop cutting, get into therapy, talk to someone for the first time about um being queer or being a child sexual abuse survivor or their self-harm and even to keep from killing themselves. And it like you mentioned, it is my arm on the cover. Um, and it actually I got in there and I was so happy that I got into that book where I showed the either the creation of or the pulling out of a personality deliberately for being taught self-harm by a perpetrator. So that shows in the crisis point in that book, and I love that I got that in there. Um, and stained, uh it's also so scars is really heavily based on my own trauma, but I I mostly didn't talk about cult abuse except for that tiny fragment. But uh being a child sexual abuse survivor, um, self-harming to cope, but I thought it was all my idea and it wasn't. I was taught it, um, being an artist and being queer. And then stained shows um being abducted and needing and all of these books I'm showing needing to save ourselves because I had to do that over and over and over to get safe. And in stained, that is actually a fragment of what I experienced because the cult would uh it's a form of trafficking where they would rent me out to abusers for a weekend or a week or a couple of weeks when there was a holiday, where they could abduct me and have the experience of abducting a child and you know, sexually assaulting us and torturing us and whatever they did. And I never knew if I would live through that or not because I didn't understand that was what was happening. So I um I didn't show it uh through the cult context, but it is from my experience as a cult survivor. Um hunted is um more fantasy, uh, but it is to me, it was like an analogy of cult torture because the Caitlin has paranormal powers and she is hunted for those powers and hated. And um cult was uh constantly hating us and controlling us and trying to control the worldview for every one of us survivors and visions. Um I'm also taking aspects of some of the torture, but it is also fantasy. And I'm so glad that you uh brought up my website because on my website I have articles that I've written about cult torture, about programming, mind control, um, but also about being able to recognize signs and symptoms. It would be under the articles uh next to the book goodies. Yeah. Um so there's DID, but yeah, so of course I wrote ones on self-harm and um suicide, um, reasons to stay, things that have helped me. But then there's another section where I talk about signs and symptoms of a cult torture survivor, and I think that would be at the top, there would be a link to it. Um under cult abuse and programming, that would be the link. And uh many people have asked me, like, how do we recognize a survivor? So the signs and symptoms of a cult torture survivor and how to help are is an incredibly detailed article that goes through many, many of the forms of torture. Um, the physical, the sexual, the psychological torture, and um some signs that many of us survivors have, but not all, but and not every survivor, like we wouldn't have all of the signs and symptoms, but we often have many of them or showed them as a child, but even as an adult. And there's some suggestions too on how to help. And then the articles on mind control show ways that I have worked through programming and mind control myself and how I continue to, and that can also help survivors and therapists.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:06

Incredible. What a wealth of knowledge just your website is. And this would be again a really easy thing to share, and then for you guys to go and look at and dive into. And thank you so much for putting all this together. And this is just one part of your website. You also have media, you have other links, you have your books. This, I mean, you could spend hours on this website going through it. So thank you so much. I can't even imagine the amount of work that this was putting all this together.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:32

Thank you. It's always been important to me to try and make positive change and to help um survivors know they're not alone.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:42

And I'll also have Cheryl's social media below too, in addition to the website. So please go support. Such an easy and free way to support survivors. And if you guys are looking for gifts for yourself to treat your yourself to add to your library, or if you have a friend that has a birthday coming up, or you know a survivor that could benefit from Cheryl's fiction, um, please go support and purchase the books and add them to your collection, give them as gifts, go post the links on your website and help promote and support. Um, it would mean a lot to us. And I think, like Cheryl said, it's such a good way to help people understand what's going on in the world without maybe listening to interviews and things that could be a little bit more difficult. I think fiction and fantasy is a really great way for people to be introduced to these topics in a way that they're used to, which is reading books and you know, fiction and things like that. So I'm really grateful for all the work that that you've all done and you know that that you've created all of this. And I still I'm still really hoping that we can get this other book out. Um, so everybody that purchases books and that supports and follows on social media, you help bring Cheryl another step closer to getting this this next book out that they've been really, really working hard on and want to get out. So um thank you so much for coming on today and for sharing all of this. It really means a lot. And you all just did such a phenomenal job breaking down some really hard and difficult things. And I could talk to you for hours and hours, and you know, it's there's just so much to learn. So I'm really grateful you're out there doing seminars. I'm gonna have that conference link down below too for people to go join. Encourage you guys to do that. And then is there anything else that you wanted to share before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01 1:57:20

Um, I was thinking uh that if people do want uh to someday read my book on Called Torture and DID, that's like so uh closely drawn from my life. It does help if you're buying my books and you're following me on social media because publishers look at all that. They look at the numbers for both of them for books sold, but also platforms. So I so appreciate any support. And thank you for making this space for us survivors speaking out. I really appreciate it. And also oh, thank you. Also, I just I've realized um I didn't talk too much about hope, but I do want to say that there is hope. I see things changing, I see more people hearing and believing survivors, and that is something to hold on to. And with social media, we are able to reach so many more people and more people are waking up to this reality. And that means that slow change is happening. And I think sometimes we like can all fall into despair and that nothing is gonna get better and nothing's gonna change. And when I go there, I will often think about how it used to be okay in countries like Canada and the US and the UK to uh have kids working in factories or to have um child sexual abuse, even, and how there have been laws that have been made to stop that from happening. And even though it's not always successful, there are laws to try and protect us. And that I think that shows that there's like slow change that happens to protect us all. And the more people hear us now and believe us survivors now, the further we're working towards change again to try and end such horrific things. So if you are listening to us survivors and you care about this and you believe us and you want to make change, one way to help that is to talk to people in your life about cult torture. Help them see that it's not a conspiracy theory, help them understand that this has been happening for a really long time and that you believe survivors. And to further that, you could also share the videos of like survivors that you listen to, that you trust, and share it on social media, like just reshare it or share it with someone that you care about that you want them to be able to learn. And that helps make change, and that is so important. And thank you to everyone who's doing that, and thank you so much to you for creating this platform where survivors are heard.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:58

It's such a great honor, and that was a really beautiful way to wrap up and such a wonderful message to give. And so, for everybody listening, head down to the show notes, go support Cheryl on all of their platforms, get their books, go share their website, read the articles on Cult Abios programming, anything that you guys could possibly want to know regarding Ramcoa is on the website and share those links, please. It would mean a lot. Um, and just thank you guys so much for all your support. We couldn't do this without all of you. You guys are the backbone of this movement, and without you, we'd just be speaking into this dark abyss of nobody listening. And so it's all of you that have helped create this movement and this wave that we have now. So let's keep riding it, let's keep going. Thank you guys so much for listening. Bless you all, and we will see you next time.